[MonteLDS]

This is by no means finial but this is how things may work.

1) Make a request for example: The Double Door shows...
2a) Find out if it is available (it might have not been transferred to digital format yet or known where it is in the archive)
2b) Find our what's the quality like
3) Suggest what kind of release we should have. Limited LP, CD, Collectible USB, Unlimited-Digital, something else.. maybe just LP and then digital.. a mix and match. lots of possibilities.
4a) Have Billy give us an idea how much has to be pledged for it to work in-connection with the cost for distribution, and if needed: artwork, production cost, etc
4b) Make pricing models depending on the price (ie. 500 CDs w/ additional digital FLAC or MP3 (user choice) at $40.. $25 for digital only FLAC, $15 for mp3s.. These are all make believe numbers)
5a) Bring the pricing to the fans to double check that it seems reasonable if not back to step 3.
5b) Give samples if needed to push it over the top
6) Start the kick starter with samples
7) Once funding has been reached (depending on the model) digital releases come out right away (unless some editing has not been finished)
8) Go back to step 1 if haven't already.

[standing]

RottingApples, on 18 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Everything starts out digital, but if any of the tiers reach a certain number of downloads, a limited edition physical release can be produced, as has been discussed before.

The following would be ideal for audio:

Tier 1: Double Door ’95 compilation (1-2 disc comp best of the 4 shows)
Tier 2: All 4 complete Double Door shows available individually.
Tier 3: Double Door box set of all 4 shows packaged together, for a discount.

Make all 3 options available, and any tier that reaches xx amount of downloads can have the physical copy.

interesting. putting up multiple tiers at once would be a great way to determine which format people will pay what for.

ChrisHill, on 18 April 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

I agree that the Double Door naturally supports a tiered approach, but you're missing out on the benefit that Kickstarter provides: up front financial backing. Just making the music available for download is expensive, and like Billy said they need a guarantee that they'll make back their cost before they go in and spend the time/money preparing the music. So tiers would look something like:

$10 - digital download of the best of the 4 '95 Double Door shows (this "best of" works, because it's a limited set of music for someone to go through and cherry pick from)
$50 - digital download of all 4 Double Door shows, complete
$100 - CD boxset of all 4 Double Door shows, hand-numbered and autographed by Billy
$200 - Vinyl boxset of all 4 Double Door shows, hand-numbered and autographed by Billy, access to digital download
$400 - Vinyl boxset of all 4 Double Door shows, hand-numbered and autographed by Billy, access to digital download, tickets and backstage passes to a show on the upcoming tour with some sort of band meet-and-greet (obviously this would depend on tour dates being public, just spitballing idea for "bonuses" that wouldn't cost the band money but would pull in extra $$)

I'll defer to WayneArnold on whether an item like this would appeal to vinyl collectors. He's right that the smaller set of collectors of physical media that are willing to pay more money are the key to raising enough to fund the digital downloads.

It's important, I think, to not look at the Kickstarter tiers as "prices", per se. I believe you can contribute however much you want to a Kickstarter project, regardless of where the tiers are set, the different tiers are just meant to reward those who contribute more and guide the amounts that people pledge. The goal here would be to get the Double Door shows released, regardless of how much each individual person pledges.

(Disclaimer: I purposely left out video since it was unclear from the interview whether Billy had access and rights to these shows on video)



Do you see this hub as the catalog of archive material or a place where, once something has been released, future fans can purchase digital downloads? Because I view the latter as a project too big for a volunteer, in-their-spare-time, group of fans. If the SPFC is down for a little while, it's no big deal. If you put your credit card info into a site and it goes down or is hacked or something, you expect a different level of professional service and support that volunteer fans couldn't possibly provide. If it's the former, I think they could leverage the SPFC. Add a database field for including "archive sound quality" in the recording information section of a show, fill in the setlist gaps, and add the recording info and sound quality. Voila.

Chris Hill

great idea about utilizing spfc since its already so well set up.

davidp2007, on 18 April 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

SDB?

The tier system seems like a possibility. And vinyl is cool and an all, but I don't personally see myself paying $500 for a vinyl box set. If I was able to even spend half that, I would have bought a used copy of Siamese Singles off ebay a long time ago. Obviously there is a lot more material on say the Rubano Tapes, but I don't see most of the fans shelling out that much for vinyl or in general on any one release.

Let's be realistic. The vast majority of the Lucky 13 are bound to have lives outside the Pumpkins and/or other involvement with the band. This isn't a full time job for them. Sorry to say, but there is more to life than the Pumpkins. I am passionate about the band and have tried to stay involved in the community myself in my own small way, but you can't hold people up to an impossible standard. Obviously they are dedicated and passionate about trying to make this project work and trying to get all the other fans involved in the process. They wouldn't be a part of the team if it wasn't a priority for them, but even Billy is juggling multiple priorities, and again, these are volunteers, not paid workers.

It's healthy to bring some skepticism, perhaps constructive criticism or suggestions on how things could be improved. But it's a completely different matter to think it will help to belittle the people involved whether directly or in a abstract way. Or expect that everything will be crystal clear and they will have figured everything out from a mere 5 days of discussions in an ongoing and ever evolving project.

yeah, expensive exclusive editions may not be the best focus for return. with so many live shows and such, I think OFTEN new releases at affordable prices would be the better way to go. building up return business upon return business is pretty much the way any business venture succeeds. Billy said in the interview that they want to vent this stuff over the next 3 years or so; so releasing a lot at an affordable rate would be the way to do that. if everything is a stretch for the middle and.low class, those people wont be able to make repeat buys. and for a lot of collectors there is a completist mentality. if a middle-budgeted person sees that its only affordable for a very rich person to collect it all, they'll likely stop buying any of it and just download it. that's a problem with making it where only someone with an exxtra 500 dollars will actually have everything- that will condition the poor and.middle to just download it all.for free instead of buying any of it.

frednirv632, on 18 April 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'd completely forgotten the fact that items like these do, in fact, exist in the archive. Are they part of the Lucky 13 project and consequent conversations? If so, would anyone even be interested in such items? I can't imagine reprinted posters/photos/etc would be in high demand at all.

interesting thing to bring up. concert-specific posters and passes and things could be good exclusives to put in the higher-tier more expensive physical releases.

MonteLDS, on 18 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

This is by no means finial but this is how things may work.

1) Make a request for example: The Double Door shows...
2a) Find out if it is available (it might have not been transferred to digital format yet or known where it is in the archive)
2b) Find our what's the quality like
3) Suggest what kind of release we should have. Limited LP, CD, Collectible USB, Unlimited-Digital, something else.. maybe just LP and then digital.. a mix and match. lots of possibilities.
4a) Have Billy give us an idea how much has to be pledged for it to work in-connection with the cost for distribution, and if needed: artwork, production cost, etc
4b) Make pricing models depending on the price (ie. 500 CDs w/ additional digital FLAC or MP3 (user choice) at $40.. $25 for digital only FLAC, $15 for mp3s.. These are all make believe numbers)
5a) Bring the pricing to the fans to double check that it seems reasonable if not back to step 3.
5b) Give samples if needed to push it over the top
6) Start the kick starter with samples
7) Once funding has been reached (depending on the model) digital releases come out right away (unless some editing has not been finished)
8) Go back to step 1 if haven't already.

sweet. how soon do you suspect we can try out the.first one. those.steps. sound like a reasonable plan. somewhere near step one has to be a way to determine type of release (live, demo, etc). why don't we do a practice one of a collection of all unreleased studio gish songs? (see my earlier reply for fuller details).

[.absof.]

Some people have been asking 'We don't know what Billy's releasing on future re-issues so how can we request that?'
Why doesn't theLucky13 just focus on Gish/Siamese Dream for now, then when future re-issues come out expand into that era also?


Why are people even mentioning USB sticks? If the media is available as a digital release why would you want a USB that is going to be directly transferred to your PC/Mac?
Don't get me wrong, each to their own and all, but I don't think it's going to stand out as much as TAFH or Siamese Singles on your mantle piece. :lick:/>

[Mayfair]

davidp2007, on 18 April 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

SDB?

soundboard

[davidp2007]

MonteLDS, on 18 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

This is by no means finial but this is how things may work.

1) Make a request for example: The Double Door shows...
2a) Find out if it is available (it might have not been transferred to digital format yet or known where it is in the archive)
2b) Find our what's the quality like
3) Suggest what kind of release we should have. Limited LP, CD, Collectible USB, Unlimited-Digital, something else.. maybe just LP and then digital.. a mix and match. lots of possibilities.
4a) Have Billy give us an idea how much has to be pledged for it to work in-connection with the cost for distribution, and if needed: artwork, production cost, etc
4b) Make pricing models depending on the price (ie. 500 CDs w/ additional digital FLAC or MP3 (user choice) at $40.. $25 for digital only FLAC, $15 for mp3s.. These are all make believe numbers)
5a) Bring the pricing to the fans to double check that it seems reasonable if not back to step 3.
5b) Give samples if needed to push it over the top
6) Start the kick starter with samples
7) Once funding has been reached (depending on the model) digital releases come out right away (unless some editing has not been finished)
8) Go back to step 1 if haven't already.

That sounds like a reasonable starting point, well once we establish what is a popular choice. I think I would like to explore the possibility of the evolution of a song at some point, like that one caller into your show mentioned. Maybe not for the first release, but later on.

.absof., on 18 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Some people have been asking 'We don't know what Billy's releasing on future re-issues so how can we request that?'
Why doesn't theLucky13 just focus on Gish/Siamese Dream for now, then when future re-issues come out expand into that era also?


Why are people even mentioning USB sticks? If the media is available as a digital release why would you want a USB that is going to be directly transferred to your PC/Mac?
Don't get me wrong, each to their own and all, but I don't think it's going to stand out as much as TAFH or Siamese Singles on your mantle piece. :lick:/>

I think the USB thing was suggested by Billy as a possibility in his interview. That's how they sold shows at the 2011 tour I believe. I agree, I would prefer a strictly digital release for a digital option, without the need for a USB stick.

I agree, and think many others feel the same way, that Gish/Siamese Dream/Pisces era would be a good starting point. We were just throwing out some ideas of what we would in general before.

Mayfair, on 18 April 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

soundboard

Oh okay, gotcha. Makes sense. Personally I would love to hear that show, and I would be interested in the Avalon show with D'arcy and all that too. I might not be able to afford that box set Billy was talking hypothetically about but I would definitely like to hear the first few shows before Jimmy joined. I believe there were two with D'arcy before the first one with Jimmy at Metro? Maybe even that handful of shows (which are short in comparison to their later shows) could be combined into one mini-package (physical and/or digital) and include the first Metro show in there as well. I do not personally have that show but I know that others got it at the final show. But I don't think many people have heard the earlier shows.

But the Gish demos idea might be better to start.

[Whicker]

Sorry for the double post, it wouldn't let me edit it so i just created a new one. If a mod could delete the first one that would be appreciated.

MonteLDS, on 18 April 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

This is by no means finial but this is how things may work.

1) Make a request for example: The Double Door shows...
2a) Find out if it is available (it might have not been transferred to digital format yet or known where it is in the archive)
2b) Find our what's the quality like
3) Suggest what kind of release we should have. Limited LP, CD, Collectible USB, Unlimited-Digital, something else.. maybe just LP and then digital.. a mix and match. lots of possibilities.
4a) Have Billy give us an idea how much has to be pledged for it to work in-connection with the cost for distribution, and if needed: artwork, production cost, etc
4b) Make pricing models depending on the price (ie. 500 CDs w/ additional digital FLAC or MP3 (user choice) at $40.. $25 for digital only FLAC, $15 for mp3s.. These are all make believe numbers)
5a) Bring the pricing to the fans to double check that it seems reasonable if not back to step 3.
5b) Give samples if needed to push it over the top
6) Start the kick starter with samples
7) Once funding has been reached (depending on the model) digital releases come out right away (unless some editing has not been finished)
8) Go back to step 1 if haven't already.

There seems to be WAY too much back and forth with that plan Monte. It will be a lot harder to sift through feedback and such and will make your lives/Billy's a lot more difficult. Also it will be pretty depressing and detrimental to the project if we get to #5 or 6 and then it falls through cause people cant agree on a model or there's not enough interest/people willing to pay. Then we are back at square 1 and have to restart all over again hoping we can even get to #5-6.

Here's an idea...
It obviously isn't something I expect to be implemented till the 2nd or 3rd release, since I have enough faith in the lucky 13 to pick the first few releases on your own from what you know a lot of people are interested in.

If you can get a list of the archive and what is available to you and the quality of said material(if not then make your own of material you know exists and figure out a way of finding out its quality/if Billy has the rights to it). You could then take that list and give it its own section on the new sp website, where people can see what's available and vote on it. Have a thumbs up system or something and when a song/live show/session/Anything reaches a certain threshold then ask people how they want said material released (or even have that integrated in voting process). Now that the material is chosen with the release format you can then go to Billy and tell him lets make this happen. He will give a cost, you have an automated system e-mail all the people who voted AND everyone else involved in the SPRC (assuming you would have to create an account to vote or use your forum acc) the kickstarter link with some information and then if the goal is reached we have ourselves a release!

Something like this makes a lot more sense while making the Lucky 13s job easier and avoid huge letdown that will hurt the whole project. Can you imagine going to Billy 3-4 times asking for releases and being told they don't own the rights or something, then finally we get something they can release and either there isn't enough interest, or there isn't enough people willing to pay once we get it on kickstarter?

Also when the section of the site gets implemented some promo for the SPRC would go a long way, with a lot of the lucky 13 having fan sites they could all advertise it, facebook, twitter, G+, Even something as simple as having a little pamphlet in the packaging for Oceania(linkin park does this for LPU). All the little things to get people knowledgeable of the project because i know a lot of fans don't go on these forums, not to mention post there ideas for SPRC. A little extra publicity would help a lot, its not necessary only super hardcore fans who would be willing to pay money for a cool b side or rare live concert.

Just my thoughts... Let em know what you guys think and if it is something feasible that the lucky 13 could pull off?

This post has been edited by Whicker: 18 April 2012 - 11:22 PM

[davidp2007]

Whicker, on 18 April 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Sorry for the double post, it wouldn't let me edit it so i just created a new one. If a mod could delete the first one that would be appreciated.




There seems to be WAY too much back and forth with that plan Monte. It will be a lot harder to sift through feedback and such and will make your lives/Billy's a lot more difficult. Also it will be pretty depressing and detrimental to the project if we get to #5 or 6 and then it falls through cause people cant agree on a model or there's not enough interest/people willing to pay. Then we are back at square 1 and have to restart all over again hoping we can even get to #5-6.

Here's an idea...
It obviously isn't something I expect to be implemented till the 2nd or 3rd release, since I have enough faith in the lucky 13 to pick the first few releases on your own from what you know a lot of people are interested in.

If you can get a list of the archive and what is available to you and the quality of said material. You could then take that list and give it its own section on the new sp website, where people can see what's available and vote on it. Have a thumbs up system or something and when a song/live show/session/Anything reaches a certain threshold then ask people how they want said material released (or even have that integrated in voting process). Now that the material is chosen with the release format you can then go to Billy and tell him lets make this happen. He will give a cost, you have an automated system e-mail all the people who voted AND everyone else involved in the SPRC (assuming you would have to create an account to vote or use your forum acc) the kickstarter link with some information and then if the goal is reached we have ourselves a release!

Something like this makes a lot more sense while making the Lucky 13s job easier and avoid huge letdown that will hurt the whole project. Can you imagine going to Billy 3-4 times asking for releases and being told they don't own the rights or something, then finally we get something they can release and either there isn't enough interest, or there isn't enough people willing to pay once we get it on kickstarter?

Just my thoughts... Let em know what you guys think and if it is something feasible that the lucky 13 could pull off?

That sounds like a great idea. At least in the long run. To get the ball rolling, we could try it Monte's way or something similar for the first release or two, and as their knowledge of the archives increases (or even knowledge of what has already been digitally transferred), then we could expand into something like you are suggesting. Looking at sources like the SPFC or SPLRA are good starting points as well. I swear in the interview Billy was trying to emphasize that he wanted people too look more well known material that might be in the archives first.

As I have noted before, the SPRC site definitely will need an overhaul to accommodate the archive project in a more tangible way, and what your suggesting could be a part of that.

[Whicker]

davidp2007, on 18 April 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

That sounds like a great idea. At least in the long run. To get the ball rolling, we could try it Monte's way or something similar for the first release or two, and as their knowledge of the archives increases (or even knowledge of what has already been digitally transferred), then we could expand into something like you are suggesting. Looking at sources like the SPFC or SPLRA are good starting points as well. I swear in the interview Billy was trying to emphasize that he wanted people too look more well known material that might be in the archives first.

As I have noted before, the SPRC site definitely will need an overhaul to accommodate the archive project in a more tangible way, and what your suggesting could be a part of that.

Agreed!

[whywontyoulisten]

All the options so far seem ridiculously complicated, and this will doom the project to failure. All we need to start with is high quality digital releases for download, just like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site. One we have them, we can make mp3s, burn to CD, do whatever the hell we like with them.

If rabid collectors want a vinyl boxset, then find out how much it'll cost to manufacture, gather names, split the cost equally, get everyone to pay up front (otherwise known as "pre-ordering"), and have the things made and sent out.

[WayneArnold]

whywontyoulisten, on 19 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

All we need to start with is high quality digital releases for download, just like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site.

:rofl:/> Digital downloads don't work. These releases need to result in making some money. You don't go about that digitally.


I'm sorry, but anyone here neglecting the importance of vinyl in this equation can't be taken seriously. Right now it is the only method of release people are paying top dollar for.

Quote

One we have them, we can make mp3s, burn to CD, do whatever the hell we like with them.

Oh, is that how digital files work?

[MonteLDS]

whywontyoulisten, on 19 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

All the options so far seem ridiculously complicated, and this will doom the project to failure. All we need to start with is high quality digital releases for download, just like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site. One we have them, we can make mp3s, burn to CD, do whatever the hell we like with them.

If rabid collectors want a vinyl boxset, then find out how much it'll cost to manufacture, gather names, split the cost equally, get everyone to pay up front (otherwise known as "pre-ordering"), and have the things made and sent out.

I think digital downloads are important. Because people have expectation that something that isn't tangible would be cheaper. And for lots of people price is more important than a more expensive physical product.

To hit your comment of "we need to start with is high quality digital releases...like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site."
I have to ask, who is paying the up front cost of these releases, the artist the label maybe even the 3rd party who is doing the selling? Because in this case Billy is paying the upfront cost and as he said in the interview and in past, he isn't willing just to pay the upfront cost and hope for the best. He needs assurance by the kickstarter model.

[whywontyoulisten]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Oh, is that how digital files work?

The point I was trying to make was that it seriously complicates things (and raises the manufacturing costs) to have each release on multiple formats, when, to be honest, this project isn't going to shift millions of copies. It's only really the hardcore fans and community-members who will be going after this stuff, and are there really that many of us? I can see loads of CDs or vinyls being created, left unsold, and the project being scrapped as a result.

I'm happy to pay (per-album/concert) for video/audio downloads, as long as they're as good as you would get on CD or DVD. Let's just get the content out there; that's far more important than any materialistic shiny crap to leave in its shrinkwrap and stroke lovingly once every other century.

Edit: Oh wait, Monte said something.

[WayneArnold]

whywontyoulisten, on 19 April 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

The point I was trying to make was that it seriously complicates things (and raises the manufacturing costs) to have each release on multiple formats, when, to be honest, this project isn't going to shift millions of copies. It's only really the hardcore fans and community-members who will be going after this stuff, and are there really that many of us? I can see loads of CDs or vinyls being created, left unsold, and the project being scrapped as a result.

I'm happy to pay (per-album/concert) for video/audio downloads, as long as they're as good as you would get on CD or DVD. Let's just get the content out there; that's far more important than any materialistic shiny crap to leave in its shrinkwrap and stroke lovingly once every other century.

Edit: Oh wait, Monte said something.

You're really missing the point. The plan would never be to half-hazardly produce a bunch of physical copies. Like you said, the community interested in this stuff is small, but dedicated. The type of audience that is interested in physical releases- releases that they'd be happy to pay a decent amount of money for unlike digital copies. You're not gonna be generating much money from digital copies, you just aren't. They're necessary, sure, but the money has to come from a physical release- limited releases, but physical releases nonetheless.

[crestfallen73]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

:rofl:/> Digital downloads don't work. These releases need to result in making some money. You don't go about that digitally.


I'm sorry, but anyone here neglecting the importance of vinyl in this equation can't be taken seriously. Right now it is the only method of release people are paying top dollar for.

I won't deny that there is an importance for vinyl, but I have been a fan since Gish, and I'd rather drop $ on a nice cd with a decent insert than vinyl. If I want to hang art I'll buy a poster. Music is to be listened to. The only SP vinyl I have are the Siamese Singles. I've listened to them once. They pretty much sit and collect dust. I must fail at being a hip elitist snob.

[WayneArnold]

crestfallen73, on 19 April 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

I must fail at being a hip elitist snob.

And also understanding where there's money to be made from the Smashing Pumpkins fanbase.

[whywontyoulisten]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

You're really missing the point. The plan would never be to half-hazardly produce a bunch of physical copies. Like you said, the community interested in this stuff is small, but dedicated. The type of audience that is interested in physical releases- releases that they'd be happy to pay a decent amount of money for unlike digital copies. You're not gonna be generating much money from digital copies, you just aren't. They're necessary, sure, but the money has to come from a physical release- limited releases, but physical releases nonetheless.

Ok sure, very small-run entirely paid-in-advance physical releases would work...as long as the small-scale doesn't make everything completely unaffordable.

[crestfallen73]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

And also understanding where there's money to be made from the Smashing Pumpkins fanbase.

Make sure you buy two of every vinyl they release in this project then! No excuses!

[WayneArnold]

whywontyoulisten, on 19 April 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ok sure, very small-run entirely paid-in-advance physical releases would work...as long as the small-scale doesn't make everything completely unaffordable.

Yeah, I think that's the key. Small run, so there's interest to get your hands on it, the bulk of the money comes from that and then you have the digital downloads.

crestfallen73, on 19 April 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Make sure you buy two of every vinyl they release in this project then! No excuses!

I don't have enough space for that on my walls...

[Sophie]

I was just wondering:
Does any of you know exactly how many copies of the reissues of Gish and SD were sold. I think this could be an interesting number to look at in order to have an estimation of how many copies of the next release will have to be pressed. I guess the sales of Gish and SD reissues could be a maximum in terms of sales expectations as far as "new-but-old" material is concerned. I reckon indeed that not every person who bought those reissues will buy more obscure material and not many people would buy a video of a former show without paying any attention to the reissues.
It would also be interesting to have an idea of the ratio between people who bought the deluxe editions and people who bought the standard ones or the digital downloads. I think you can already make statistics on customers habits and prospects out of relevant data.

crestfallen73, on 19 April 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

The only SP vinyl I have are the Siamese Singles. I've listened to them once. They pretty much sit and collect dust.

Let me help you clean your house: send them to me in a rigid cardboard, I'll take great care of them and they will be reunited with their little brothers and sisters. :D/>

[WayneArnold]

First week Siamese Dream reissues did 8,332 and Gish did around 6,000. Granted, that was the first week, but you'd have to expect the SPRC releases won't even reach those first week numbers. I'll check soundscan later to see how many they've moved to date.

[crestfallen73]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I don't have enough space for that on my walls...

So much for putting your money where your mouth is. I'm gonna guess that you are involved with politics of some kind right? I mean here you are talking about how the money is in the vinyl. I bet you won't buy one piece of vinyl from this. You'll just wait and leech it off of some torrent.

[Sophie]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

First week Siamese Dream reissues did 8,332 and Gish did around 6,000.

US only or whole wide world ?

[WayneArnold]

crestfallen73, on 19 April 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

So much for putting your money where your mouth is. I'm gonna guess that you are involved with politics of some kind right? I mean here you are talking about how the money is in the vinyl. I bet you won't buy one piece of vinyl from this. You'll just wait and leech it off of some torrent.

I prefer listening to music on vinyl, so if it's something that warrants a release on vinyl, that's what I'll be purchasing. As I've done with their other releases. Let's not project anymore, eh? Just comes off as desperate.

Sophie, on 19 April 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

US only or whole wide world ?

Soundscan is US and Canada only.

[Sophie]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Soundscan is US and Canada only.

OK thanks.

[crestfallen73]

I'm not projecting anything. You stated that no one would seriously want any format other than vinyl. I expressed that I would.

[WayneArnold]

crestfallen73, on 19 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'm not projecting anything. You stated that no one would seriously want any format other than vinyl. I expressed that I would.

Weird, show me where I said that again?


I said vinyl and digital releases should be the only focus. You said you wanted a CD. I think you'll find that CDs 1. wouldnot have a great deal of interest in this fanbase and 2. don't command the money you can command from vinyl. It's simple. The numbers are out there. Unless you want to keep harping on the sample size you've brought up- which is you and you alone.

[gyang333]

MonteLDS, on 19 April 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

I think digital downloads are important. Because people have expectation that something that isn't tangible would be cheaper. And for lots of people price is more important than a more expensive physical product.

To hit your comment of "we need to start with is high quality digital releases...like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site."
I have to ask, who is paying the up front cost of these releases, the artist the label maybe even the 3rd party who is doing the selling? Because in this case Billy is paying the upfront cost and as he said in the interview and in past, he isn't willing just to pay the upfront cost and hope for the best. He needs assurance by the kickstarter model.

I think what he was getting at was that, while still going with the kickstarter method, however don't go all Indian-council on the first few releases. You guys (Lucky13 & BC) pick what you think is the best thing to release first, and then put it up on kickstarter for us to back. If we discuss everything till we're blue in the face, this project will never take off.

[BitterRootOfSelf]

I think you guys are missing the point on the digital releases. They won't have to generate a ton of money in sales because it's not going to cost a ton of money I put it out. No physical assets need to be produced. I think the digital apect of this project is most important to get out the most amount of materials at the lowest cost possible and as fast as possible

[crestfallen73]

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Weird, show me where I said that again?


I said vinyl and digital releases should be the only focus. You said you wanted a CD. I think you'll find that CDs 1. wouldnot have a great deal of interest in this fanbase and 2. don't command the money you can command from vinyl. It's simple. The numbers are out there. Unless you want to keep harping on the sample size you've brought up- which is you and you alone.

:rolleyes:/>

[WayneArnold]

BitterRootOfSelf, on 19 April 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

I think you guys are missing the point on the digital releases. They won't have to generate a ton of money in sales because it's not going to cost a ton of money I put it out. No physical assets need to be produced. I think the digital apect of this project is most important to get out the most amount of materials at the lowest cost possible and as fast as possible

There are definitely positives to the digital releases- the biggest, as you pointed out, is the low cost to release it. The problem is you can't get much money back from that. I think some releases should ONLY be digital, but not all of them. And I think for the first release, we should have both a physical and digital release because it should be something that warrants both a physical and digital release.

[RottingApples]

TheLucky13, on 15 April 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Yes, for consistent releases - we are thinking of a system where different types of archive materials are released at certain intervals. As an example, it could be 1 free song a month, then 1 soundboard recording every 2 months, 1 physical release every 3 months and so on. It will not be possible to be consistent if we release back-to-back big items like a boxset and a video documentary that needs a lot of editing work. Does anyone see where this type of system could go wrong?

I definitely agree with the idea of doing multiple, concurrent releases, where some are paid and some are free. The only thing I could see changing is in the "1 free song a month", as was experienced with Teargarden and SPRC, it wasn't much for people to digest and they got bored and agitated with it. Though, of course, you can't just throw tons of free stuff out there all the time either. I could see doing an EPs worth (5-6 tracks) of free demo tracks/ rehearsal tracks/ etc. per month to tide people over in the free department, and concurrently doing 1 live concert and one collection/ box set/ etc per month in the paid area. Of course, as has been discussed, upon raising funds through support with Kickstarter, those concerts and demo collections and box sets hold the potential to have limited run physical copies (CD, vinyl, etc), which would be much more spaced out (manufacturing time and whatnot). The idea is not to flood the marketplace, but it is also not to trickle things out once every 2-3 months. For all the materials that might be deemed "unreleasable", there's still plenty of releasable material that should steadily and regularly get released. Otherwise, we may all be long gone before much has been released. I think the details from many others' posts regarding Kickstarter, digital vs. physical are all highly, highly important. All I'm trying to emphasize is the importance of regular, steady stream content. Regular free content in addition to the paid stuff, and several releases coming out every month (Not counting physical releases).

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

There are definitely positives to the digital releases- the biggest, as you pointed out, is the low cost to release it. The problem is you can't get much money back from that. I think some releases should ONLY be digital, but not all of them. And I think for the first release, we should have both a physical and digital release because it should be something that warrants both a physical and digital release.

Yes, indeed.

[RottingApples]

Consider this as a potential calendar for releases:

Per Month: 5-6 Free demos (sometimes may include live video)
Per Month: 1 concert (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item
Per Month: 1 collection of demos/ outtakes/ alt versions/ etc. (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item
Per 6 Months: Large Special Box Set release (ie: Rubano Tapes Set, Pastichio Medley Set, Multiple concerts set) - Paid item

Those above paid items would go through the Kickstarter model the previous month, and over several weeks gain support/ donations - Goal 1 being the raising of xx money to cover whatever the cost is to release the item digitally (which if it reaches this presumably low goal amount, would then become digitally available for purchase that next month). Also, if it continues to gain support and reaches whatever the Goal 2 xx amount of money is to make a limited physical run possible, then production can begin on physical copies, and in several months time those can be made available as well.

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

Timing is also important for the more casual or less cash strapped fans. For example, I would LOVE to buy some of these releases on vinyl, but if you guys did it too close to the Oceania or PI reissues I would be more hesitant to get the physical goods because I already plan on getting those on CD and Vinyl. Another idea I had was maybe pairing a USB/CD/Vinyl release with special poster reprints from a given show or time, or reprint a similar T-shirt or something. Maybe as part of a high tiered incentive?

[ChrisHill]

I think there are still some people that don't understand how Kickstarter works. The band/Lucky 13 sets the goal, people donate money to it, and if the goal is reached then the work is done to mix/master the music, release it digitally, and press/distribute any physical products. There are a number of different ways to reach the target amount. One "angel investor" could swoop in and donate the full amount. That's probably not going to happen. A lot of people could all donate a small amount. This works for high-profile, high-demand projects, but probably wouldn't work here depending on the target amount. Or, the majority of "investors" could donate a small amount and a few people who are willing and able could donate a larger amount.

The way you encourage this is by incentivizing larger donations with collectibles or unique opportunities. WayneArnold has already made the point that one proven way to do this is to press vinyl, as there a number of vinyl collectors who are willing to pay larger amounts of money for short-run official vinyl releases (see: Siamese Singles). But pressing this vinyl doesn't complicate the process or add unnecessary expense, because without it it becomes very difficult to reach the goal amount.

Let's say the goal is $20,000, and the Kickstarter is set up so that a $10 donation gets you the final product in digital form. That's 2,000 people that have to donate in order for the project to happen. Instead, what if people who donate $100 get signed vinyl and a short webchat with Billy or something. Let's say there are 50 vinyl collectors or people interested in the personal encounter. Those people have now accounted for 1/4 of the target amount, now you only need 1,500 people to donate at the digital download level in order for the project to happen, and so on and so forth.

And that should close the book on this aspect of the discussion. Billy said, very reasonably, that he needs guaranteed money up front in order to make anything happen. The Lucky 13 team seems to be leaning towards Kickstarter, which is a wise move since it requires no development work on their part. A cursory glance at any Kickstarter campaign reveals this same model for "exploiting" those with the desire and means to donate more. Discussion over.

Chris Hill

[Sophie]

RottingApples, on 19 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Per Month: 5-6 Free demos (sometimes may include live video)
Per Month: 1 concert (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item
Per Month: 1 collection of demos/ outtakes/ alt versions/ etc. (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item

I hope you don't mean all those things within the same month because I will never have enough money for everything! That would be 24 SP paid items a year only from the Lucky13 and potentially some quite expensive.
I guess you meant each month "either this" or "either that". Moreover you need to let people time to pledge and to manufacture the objects.
A release every two months could be great as well, I want to have time to enjoy each new release and I don't want to be overwhelmed by the whole thing (says someone connected on this website on a daily basis!), I think the pledging system could keep me entertained for a few weeks.

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 19 April 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Another idea I had was maybe pairing a USB/CD/Vinyl release with special poster reprints from a given show or time, or reprint a similar T-shirt or something. Maybe as part of a high tiered incentive?

May I say that I love the idea of the corresponding posters reprint. I know a majority of people are not interested in this kind of things but I happen to like artworks and everything (and I have a new flat with nude walls ;)/>).

[ChrisHill]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 19 April 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Another idea I had was maybe pairing a USB/CD/Vinyl release with special poster reprints from a given show or time, or reprint a similar T-shirt or something. Maybe as part of a high tiered incentive?

Yes. In the absence of Lucky 13 trying to direct the discussion themselves, perhaps a good direction to go in would be what are some high-tier incentives that could be included that wouldn't be financially detrimental to the project? I suggested a few "encounter" type events, like a 30-minute moderated webchat with Billy about the Rubano tapes or tickets and backstage passes to an upcoming show. Obviously this is entirely nonscientific, but are people interested in exclusive autographed posters? This seems like it might make sense for the Double Door shows, specifically. Anyone have any idea how much it costs to get posters printed up (assuming there's an existing design from the period that they're reprinting)?

[WayneArnold]

At this point I think Lucky 13 should give us three release options. We pick one of them, decide if its physical/digital or just a digital release and they price it out. But we need release options otherwise this will just go in circles.

[standing]

.absof., on 18 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Some people have been asking 'We don't know what Billy's releasing on future re-issues so how can we request that?'
Why doesn't theLucky13 just focus on Gish/Siamese Dream for now, then when future re-issues come out expand into that era also?


Why are people even mentioning USB sticks? If the media is available as a digital release why would you want a USB that is going to be directly transferred to your PC/Mac?
Don't get me wrong, each to their own and all, but I don't think it's going to stand out as much as TAFH or Siamese Singles on your mantle piece. :lick:/>

agreed we should narrow it down by staying in the era the reissues are on. and agreed that USB would be one of the most wasteful release methods.

davidp2007, on 18 April 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

That sounds like a reasonable starting point, well once we establish what is a popular choice. I think I would like to explore the possibility of the evolution of a song at some point, like that one caller into your show mentioned. Maybe not for the first release, but later on.


I think the USB thing was suggested by Billy as a possibility in his interview. That's how they sold shows at the 2011 tour I believe. I agree, I would prefer a strictly digital release for a digital option, without the need for a USB stick.

I agree, and think many others feel the same way, that Gish/Siamese Dream/Pisces era would be a good starting point. We were just throwing out some ideas of what we would in general before.


Oh okay, gotcha. Makes sense. Personally I would love to hear that show, and I would be interested in the Avalon show with D'arcy and all that too. I might not be able to afford that box set Billy was talking hypothetically about but I would definitely like to hear the first few shows before Jimmy joined. I believe there were two with D'arcy before the first one with Jimmy at Metro? Maybe even that handful of shows (which are short in comparison to their later shows) could be combined into one mini-package (physical and/or digital) and include the first Metro show in there as well. I do not personally have that show but I know that others got it at the final show. But I don't think many people have heard the earlier shows.

But the Gish demos idea might be better to start.

going through the changing eras of the band live could be an important measure of continuity for the project. putting out a release that is just Billy And James, and then with Darcy , And then with Jimmy would show an important evolution.

whywontyoulisten, on 19 April 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

All the options so far seem ridiculously complicated, and this will doom the project to failure. All we need to start with is high quality digital releases for download, just like any other (tried-and-tested) digital music site. One we have them, we can make mp3s, burn to CD, do whatever the hell we like with them.

If rabid collectors want a vinyl boxset, then find out how much it'll cost to manufacture, gather names, split the cost equally, get everyone to pay up front (otherwise known as "pre-ordering"), and have the things made and sent out.

I'm feeling concerned over the high complication too. digital downloaday be the best route for this amount of material to be affordable. deluxe releases cam of course ne integrated where they make sense. I don't think there are enough rich completist hardcores to try to put the vitality of this project on them. continued purchase by the middle and low class will ne the blood of this thing.

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

You're really missing the point. The plan would never be to half-hazardly produce a bunch of physical copies. Like you said, the community interested in this stuff is small, but dedicated. The type of audience that is interested in physical releases- releases that they'd be happy to pay a decent amount of money for unlike digital copies. You're not gonna be generating much money from digital copies, you just aren't. They're necessary, sure, but the money has to come from a physical release- limited releases, but physical releases nonetheless.

the issue with this is that in a year we will only get 3 releases, each costing 200dollars. we need to get into a situation where someone can jump on the collecting train for avg 10dollars a week-long then through quality product, they CONTINUE to ride that train.

BitterRootOfSelf, on 19 April 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

I think you guys are missing the point on the digital releases. They won't have to generate a ton of money in sales because it's not going to cost a ton of money I put it out. No physical assets need to be produced. I think the digital apect of this project is most important to get out the most amount of materials at the lowest cost possible and as fast as possible

very true. Billy said he wants to do this in like 3yrs. vinyl boxes ain't gonna make that happen. a continuously updated download catalogue will.

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

There are definitely positives to the digital releases- the biggest, as you pointed out, is the low cost to release it. The problem is you can't get much money back from that. I think some releases should ONLY be digital, but not all of them. And I think for the first release, we should have both a physical and digital release because it should be something that warrants both a physical and digital release.

you are right that the early releases should be physical and digital. that will help prove what people want to buy and whatales the most money.
one analysis I want to add: if everything comes out as a deluxe physical package, poor people will pick only certain things to buy or just download the whole project. but if things are only digital, the hardcore collector Will still want to buy everything. AMD then certain special things cam still ne physical.

[RottingApples]

Sophie, on 19 April 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

I hope you don't mean all those things within the same month because I will never have enough money for everything! That would be 24 SP paid items a year only from the Lucky13 and potentially some quite expensive.
I guess you meant each month "either this" or "either that". Moreover you need to let people time to pledge and to manufacture the objects.
A release every two months could be great as well, I want to have time to enjoy each new release and I don't want to be overwhelmed by the whole thing (says someone connected on this website on a daily basis!), I think the pledging system could keep me entertained for a few weeks.

The intention was with both per month because 1 show and 1 demo collection (digital) shouldn't in total cost more than ~$15-$20. I don't see that as being unreasonable or out of the reach of SP fans' budgets. The Kickstarter phase would begin 1-2 months or so in advance of said items' release, allowing time for exposure/ pledging/ mastering of items/ etc., then like I said, if the goal needed for physical copies was reached, months would pass (while other digital releases would continue to come out) and in time the physical releases would come out. Also, that's the intention of only having a large box set type release twice a year. 24 SP paid items per year isn't much when digitally they only run about $10 a piece (in this example).

In a timeline, it would look like this:

January: Kickstarter campaign begins for first 2 items, with a March release date set.
February: Kickstarter campaign begins for second 2 items, with an April release date set. 1st two items raised enough money for digital and physical releases. Prep work occurs.
March: Digital release happens for first 2 items. Physical items go into production for a July release. Kickstarter campaign begins for third 2 items, with a May release date set.

And so on. Multiple releases would be worked on concurrently, with enough time allowed in advance for raising funds, prep work, and eventual release.

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

I know a lot of us are doubting whether there are enough hardcore fans left to be worth it for some of the pricier physical release ideas, but I think if SP FB and Twitter helped push these pricier items regularly we could find enough backers to make their addition to the pricing model worth it.

[ChrisHill]

standing, on 19 April 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

agreed we should narrow it down by staying in the era the reissues are on. and agreed that USB would be one of the most wasteful release methods.

You're making the assumption that the infrastructure already exists for distributing secure digital files (exists for the use of this project, of course, I know this functionality exists on the internet) and that this infrastructure is cheaper than the couple of bucks per stick and postage. If so, then you're right, there is no need for USB sticks.

standing, on 19 April 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

you are right that the early releases should be physical and digital. that will help prove what people want to buy and whatales the most money.
one analysis I want to add: if everything comes out as a deluxe physical package, poor people will pick only certain things to buy or just download the whole project. but if things are only digital, the hardcore collector Will still want to buy everything. AMD then certain special things cam still ne physical.

Good lord, what is so hard to understand about this? No one is saying something should only come out as a deluxe physical package. If you scroll up I explained in great detail exactly how a Kickstarter campaign works. Please read it.

Chris Hill

[standing]

RottingApples, on 19 April 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Consider this as a potential calendar for releases:

Per Month: 5-6 Free demos (sometimes may include live video)
Per Month: 1 concert (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item
Per Month: 1 collection of demos/ outtakes/ alt versions/ etc. (1-2 discs worth) - Paid item
Per 6 Months: Large Special Box Set release (ie: Rubano Tapes Set, Pastichio Medley Set, Multiple concerts set) - Paid item

Those above paid items would go through the Kickstarter model the previous month, and over several weeks gain support/ donations - Goal 1 being the raising of xx money to cover whatever the cost is to release the item digitally (which if it reaches this presumably low goal amount, would then become digitally available for purchase that next month). Also, if it continues to gain support and reaches whatever the Goal 2 xx amount of money is to make a limited physical run possible, then production can begin on physical copies, and in several months time those can be made available as well.

this would be a perfect schedule.

WayneArnold, on 19 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

At this point I think Lucky 13 should give us three release options. We pick one of them, decide if its physical/digital or just a digital release and they price it out. But we need release options otherwise this will just go in circles.

yeah there are so many variables, these discussions will go on forever. lucky13 has to select some options at some point, so we can start to make informed arguments for things we think will work. we need to know what theh wan the first release to be, what format, or what price. and we need to know how much certain typical recurring products will.cost to release- like a live show audio, same in video, or collection of demos.

[WayneArnold]

Yeah I don't get where people are reading my comments and deciding "well that's only a few $200 releases a year." Whoa! No, no, no. Very very little-if anything- should cost 200 dollars in this project. When I say vinyl to generate some money I mean 1 or 2 LP release that costs up to $35.

[standing]

RottingApples, on 19 April 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

The intention was with both per month because 1 show and 1 demo collection (digital) shouldn't in total cost more than ~$15-$20. I don't see that as being unreasonable or out of the reach of SP fans' budgets. The Kickstarter phase would begin 1-2 months or so in advance of said items' release, allowing time for exposure/ pledging/ mastering of items/ etc., then like I said, if the goal needed for physical copies was reached, months would pass (while other digital releases would continue to come out) and in time the physical releases would come out. Also, that's the intention of only having a large box set type release twice a year. 24 SP paid items per year isn't much when digitally they only run about $10 a piece (in this example).

In a timeline, it would look like this:

January: Kickstarter campaign begins for first 2 items, with a March release date set.
February: Kickstarter campaign begins for second 2 items, with an April release date set. 1st two items raised enough money for digital and physical releases. Prep work occurs.
March: Digital release happens for first 2 items. Physical items go into production for a July release. Kickstarter campaign begins for third 2 items, with a May release date set.

And so on. Multiple releases would be worked on concurrently, with enough time allowed in advance for raising funds, prep work, and eventual release.

I LOVE this kind of layout.

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 19 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I know a lot of us are doubting whether there are enough hardcore fans left to be worth it for some of the pricier physical release ideas, but I think if SP FB and Twitter helped push these pricier items regularly we could find enough backers to make their addition to the pricing model worth it.

this def sounds worth considering.

ChrisHill, on 19 April 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

You're making the assumption that the infrastructure already exists for distributing secure digital files (exists for the use of this project, of course, I know this functionality exists on the internet) and that this infrastructure is cheaper than the couple of bucks per stick and postage. If so, then you're right, there is no need for USB sticks.



Good lord, what is so hard to understand about this? No one is saying something should only come out as a deluxe physical package. If you scroll up I explained in great detail exactly how a Kickstarter campaign works. Please read it.

Chris Hill

I did read it, as well as every post in this thread. it sounds like a labored sluggish model that will result in only a few things coming out each year, all on vinyl, and immediately just bootlegged for free by the common person.