[CandyCaneBonfire]

After seeing the Adore version of Stumbeline, I was breath taken. It was so beautiful.
What songs do you think could have had some more work?

A few others:
Frail and Bedazzled-I love this song, but I think it could have been stretched out a bit. Maybe a space Gish like section.

Ha that's all I can think about right now.

[BlueSkiesBringTears]

After seeing the Adore version of Stumbeline, I was breath taken. It was so beautiful.
What songs do you think could have had some more work?

Stumbleine as it is on MCIS is just as it should have been, IMHO. Leaving it so bare like that was a very good call. That said, the Adore tour reworking is lovely, too.

Hmmm, in answer to your question, what can I think of offhand ... hmmm ... Methusela. Billy shouldn't have buried that one. Should've put more time into it, and used it on an album. (Or should he have? It's still great as a lost gem, so either way.)

Yeah, I know I'm not giving the kind of answers you were looking for, but that's all I got, for now.

[LostSoul]

Zeitgeist as a whole. Its a shame because given the right production, a lot of those songs could have been so much better.

I'll tell you right now, 7 Shades of Black, Starz, United States, and Bleeding the Orchid would be among my favorite SP songs had they the right production. The guitar in 7 Shades makes me squeal, and so does everything about US save for the vocals.

So I guess its more of a...should have been done differently thing, rather than needing more time.

...but thats what I got for now.

[BlueSkiesBringTears]

Oh, I'll agree with the "all of Zeitgest" sentiment. I took the question to mean songs that have been around half our lives (pre-breakup), for whatever reason.

[ToEachesOwn]

By far it's:

Home

[zeheel]

zeitgeist. the songs themselves aren´t bad at all. it´s just the production that kills them

[LostSoul]

Exactly. If it was produced better (and if Billy sang with just a bit more emotion), it would have been a really respectable come-back album.

[AlienCloak]

All of Machina II.

[Trappy]

All of Machina II.

+1

[Deleted User]

All of Machina II.

Reasoning? (I'm curious)

[zeheel]

reasoning? listen to the mash. on home, his voice is sow quieeeeeeeet. great song, but a better recording would have made a better song.

[tampaSPfan]

By far it's:

Home

Real shame with that one. Beautifully written and composed song, sounds like they went with one take and called it good. Too bad.

[slunk_4ever]

By far it's:

Home

Real shame with that one. Beautifully written and composed song, sounds like they went with one take and called it good. Too bad.

agreed. Home was so well done for the 07 tour. after hearing live that year I revisited machina 2 and I was like, what is this, where is the home I have been hearing on this tour.

[slothrop]

it's hard for me to name a song that "needed more time" because billy's such a control freak

though i guess i could agree with the machina II sentiment. don't get me wrong, the scaled back production worked on some songs (like slow dawn) but i think the album sounded the way it did due to time constraints rather than artistic direction

[wildabeastly]

Alot of the Zwan songs that were never recorded proper...

[gordonfreeman]

Pink Floyd. The Wall. Disc 2. VERAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

Please extend that song.

[Mayfair]

it's hard for me to name a song that "needed more time" because billy's such a control freak

though i guess i could agree with the machina II sentiment. don't get me wrong, the scaled back production worked on some songs (like slow dawn) but i think the album sounded the way it did due to time constraints rather than artistic direction

as far as I know they weren't under any time crunch to get M2 out. they could have waited till December instead of giving it out in September, but they just pressed whatever they had.

[Mayfair]

reasoning? listen to the mash. on home, his voice is sow quieeeeeeeet.

come on..... i am listening as i type this. his vox is proportionate to the rest of the live band mixes from the CRC sessions.


you gotta remember people, lots of this was live off the floor and mixed REALLY loose and haphazardly. that's how they wanted to do it. bunch of MCIS was live off the floor too, but it was tighter with more separation. less atmospheric fucking around with amp settings and ebow and shit.

[themadcaplaughs]

as far as I know they weren't under any time crunch to get M2 out. they could have waited till December instead of giving it out in September, but they just pressed whatever they had.

In the article published bu Rolling Stone right after the band broke up, I think Billy said the September release date stemmed from trying to get the material out before the last round of touring.

[Mayfair]

but had they really wanted to work on it, they would have still waited till after the tour and the final show to put it out. im sure of it.

it was still billed as a final gift for us. but if they werent happy with what they put out, it wasnt going to come out. we know what BC is like.

did he ever apologize for how it sounded? i forget that interview. if he did, i will concede.

[themadcaplaughs]

but had they really wanted to work on it, they would have still waited till after the tour and the final show to put it out. im sure of it.

it was still billed as a final gift for us. but if they werent happy with what they put out, it wasnt going to come out. we know what BC is like.

did he ever apologize for how it sounded? i forget that interview. if he did, i will concede.

No he didn't, I believe he said, much as you mentioned, that the idea was simply to get the songs out untouched for the most part because he was so proud of them.

[Mayfair]

it was totally the style they were going for. all together, mics bleeding into each other, trying out various techniques they hadn't in the past.

to me, it feels like i am sitting in the room with them while they play Slow Dawn. the record really reminded me of the first time i found out XYU was live off the floor, and how i thought it was unique and how MCIS on a whole had a different feel than overdubbed to death SD (not that it was mistake, i love SD).

but M2 sounded like a "band" again. complete contrast to the polished M1. that's why it wins over for me. both were done together, but took different paths.

[Mayfair]

oh, and my vote goes to cherry.

to quote da man: "Of all the B-sides, this song is probably my biggest regret. I never spent as much time on it as it probably deserved, with this version showing very little improvement from the demo. "

[iamtwo]

By far it's:

Home

yes. the 2007 version were very good.

[Messimio]

Wow, Machina 2 is one of the best Pumpkins albums. That loose but tight shoegaze sound is just fantastic.

[lucciola]

it was totally the style they were going for. all together, mics bleeding into each other, trying out various techniques they hadn't in the past.

to me, it feels like i am sitting in the room with them while they play Slow Dawn. the record really reminded me of the first time i found out XYU was live off the floor, and how i thought it was unique and how MCIS on a whole had a different feel than overdubbed to death SD (not that it was mistake, i love SD).

but M2 sounded like a "band" again. complete contrast to the polished M1. that's why it wins over for me. both were done together, but took different paths.

"How many recordings exist of songs that nobody, besides people very close to the band, have heard?

BC - i can tell you that there are many songs that were written by me during the different periods of making the albums that the band have not even heard...there is alot of stuff, and we are just trying to figure out what to do with all of it...there seems to be an insatiable deisre for new things, but i am struck by how quickly something will emerge and be dissected and judged...this makes me hesitant to release certain things because i don't want anything we have ever done to be viewed lightly because we certainly didn't take it that way...that also goes for the live recordings that we posess...at different times, different factions of fans seem to romanticize particular periods of time...everyone cannot always agree on the validity of a certain approach the band took, and only later is more of a consesus reached...for example, i know that many people are very critical of the sound of machina 1, citing machina 2 and it's rawness as something that they are more attracted to...although i respect and understand those opinions, i strongly disagree...for your amusment, i offer this...siamese dream was criticized at the time it was released for it's overproduced and overbearing sound...and the sound of machina 2, and the songs, are from the same recording sessions as machina 1...we have always felt that we knew what we were doing, and stand behind machina 1... there is only a difference of approach in the mixing, and certainly the song selection...i only offer this as evidence that a time will come where all the work can be seen clearly from the vista of proper hindsight, and when that comes, so will the work... "

Billy really like to use ellipses.

Billy knows better than all of us. Hopefully we'll catch up someday.

[Mayfair]

wow, i was bang on. sweet.

[themadcaplaughs]

but M2 sounded like a "band" again. complete contrast to the polished M1. that's why it wins over for me. both were done together, but took different paths.

Perfect description. They sound like two different parts of the same coin.

[Brundisium]

WHITE SPYDER

I could KILL to hear a finished version of that!

[pumpkinland]

My vote goes to 'Ugly'
Actually a really beautiful song - could have been included on MCIS or who knows maybe it could have been reworked to fit on Adore.

Stumbleine as it is on MCIS is just as it should have been, IMHO. Leaving it so bare like that was a very good call. That said, the Adore tour reworking is lovely, too.

Just listened to it on Youtube - Man it makes my heart so sore to hear how absolutely amazing and unique Billy's singing was.
He was completely in a league of his own and singing like that (despite those fools who complained he was whiny and ruined everything for the rest of us) made the Pumpkins great and won them an army of fans, which have steadily abandoned SP after Billy started trying to sound 'normal after Adore'
You can hear distinctly in Machina that he is beginning to change his vocal style and it's not age because Machina was released only 2 years after Adore and Billy was still in his early 30's.
Considering Billy doesn't even smoke his voice should keep much better than Chris Cornell for instance.
I'll say it again - WOW - what a performance - there has never been and never will be ANYTHING like that again!

[themadcaplaughs]

My vote goes to 'Ugly'
Actually a really beautiful song - could have been included on MCIS or who knows maybe it could have been reworked to fit on Adore.

Good call.

[Mayfair]

WHITE SPYDER

I could KILL to hear a finished version of that!

the version we have is the finished version. that is how he wanted it to be. not gonna get anything better, sorry.

[astralweeks]

My main complaint with the vast majority of Pumpkins songs is over-production as opposed to under-production...

"Home" and "Cherry" are the among the best, most haunting songs in their entire catakouge in their current form..

That's why I've always perfered Pumpkins B sides to their supposed best work..

[Brundisium]

WHITE SPYDER

I could KILL to hear a finished version of that!

the version we have is the finished version. that is how he wanted it to be. not gonna get anything better, sorry.

The song may be finished, but it's clearly a demo, not the finished product.

The sound quality is all kinds of bad.

[Mayfair]

clearly a demo? no.

sound quality is EXACTLY how they wanted it to be. tracked on the same tape as the rest of machina at CRC. only difference is final mixdown and wet/dry ratio of effects on EVERYTHING to give it the overbearing sound.

but professionally done, not a demo like say "Disco King". White Spider is from the CRC sessions, look it up.

[Brundisium]

clearly a demo? no.

sound quality is EXACTLY how they wanted it to be. tracked on the same tape as the rest of machina at CRC. only difference is final mixdown and wet/dry ratio of effects on EVERYTHING to give it the overbearing sound.

but professionally done, not a demo like say "Disco King". White Spider is from the CRC sessions, look it up.

Being recorded at a studio during album sessions doesn't have to mean it's a finished product.

In fact if I recall correctly most of the album was demoed in a studio before the finished versions were put down.

But regardless of whether or not it's a demo, no stereo handles it well, it needs a TON of work.

[easternmind]

Pretty much everything on the Adore Demos II tape! LOVE those songs!

[Mayfair]

But regardless of whether or not it's a demo, no stereo handles it well, it needs a TON of work.

like i said, they wanted it to be as unpleasant as possible. blunt force lows, cut mids and highs. it was a definite choice to make it sound like that, and I applaud the method.

"needs a ton or work" to me says a little bit of a lack of respect for the artistic vision and what he was going for. just like how i feel about the new material. I hate the fucking vocals and the mix decisions, but BC has every right in the world to make those decisions. its not my place to tell him "it needs work". that's exactly how he wanted Zeitgeist and everything since to be like.

[Brundisium]

But regardless of whether or not it's a demo, no stereo handles it well, it needs a TON of work.

like i said, they wanted it to be as unpleasant as possible. blunt force lows, cut mids and highs. it was a definite choice to make it sound like that, and I applaud the method.

"needs a ton or work" to me says a little bit of a lack of respect for the artistic vision and what he was going for. just like how i feel about the new material. I hate the fucking vocals and the mix decisions, but BC has every right in the world to make those decisions. its not my place to tell him "it needs work". that's exactly how he wanted Zeitgeist and everything since to be like.

You do know that Machina 2 wasn't finished don't you?

The record company pulled the plug so they just put out what they had so far for free.

Besides which I think it'd be more disrespectful to the band not to be honest.

No offence, but you musn't have a background in sound, it wasn't an artistic choice, it just hadn't been finished properly.

[Mayfair]

You do know that Machina 2 wasn't finished don't you?

The record company pulled the plug so they just put out what they had so far for free.

WRONG. after Virgin declined to release Machina as a double album, BC approached them to release 2 separate records. they declined that as well. in July they went back to CRC to FINISH THE SONGS cause they were proud of them and wanted them out there. what you are hearing on M2 is exactly what they wanted. stop fucking arguing with me about that. i know what i am talking about, you dont.

No offence, but you musn't have a background in sound, it wasn't an artistic choice, it just hadn't been finished properly.

no offence, but i have my degree in audio engineering, and have worked in different studios in Vancouver as a tape editor and in post production studios as a Foley editor and ADR editor.


i know my shit. got any other brilliant claims you would like to make?



I am just baffled that you assume they didn't have enough time or some stupid shit. like BC was all like "White Spyder sounds fucking terrible, but I don't care!!!! we have to get it out there!!!!! lets leave it horrible and just put it on the record!!!!!" like BC has ever done that before.....

I have to add a second for good measure. seriously dude, no more need to argue. its a huge misconception that M2 wasn't finished. you aren't the only one to think so. I, however, am here to bring the truth to the masses.

[Deleted User]

i know my shit. got any other brilliant claims you would like to make?

Mayfaired

[Mayfair]

he totally got Mayfaired.

[slothrop]

i haven't read the whole thread vis a vis the machina II argument, and i don't have any intention of getting involved. i admit upfront i don't know whether it was intended to sound the way it did or not.

but my personal opinion is that the whole album was supposed to sound like machina I. I don't think time constraints were the issue per se, but the fact that virgin nixed machina II altogether precluded it from having the "silver chrome" treatment the machina I songs got.

but either way, it'd be great to get confirmation from the bald one himself. somebody should ask billy if they're so fortunate to get the chance