[awsmsc]

It's been a few months since we had this thread, so I figured we ought to do it again.

I'm assuming everyone will agree with me on this:

*Heavier on most/all tracks
*Less vocal tracks on some tracks (just Billy singing, not 5 Billys singing)
*Put in "Zeitgeist" "Stellar" and "Ma Belle" and take out your 3 least favorite Zeitgeist songs

Also, just throwing this out there, I think it would be cool to listen to a Zeitgeist without any vocals. I think I'd really enjoy a lot of the songs more.

I really hope the whole album gets a do over in 2014 or whatever after all the reissues. We're already supposed to get the Machinas remixed.

[snail33]

awsmsc, on 07 April 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

It's been a few months since we had this thread, so I figured we ought to do it again.

I'm assuming everyone will agree with me on this:

*Heavier on most/all tracks
*Less vocal tracks on some tracks (just Billy singing, not 5 Billys singing)
*Put in "Zeitgeist" "Stellar" and "Ma Belle" and take out your 3 least favorite Zeitgeist songs

Also, just throwing this out there, I think it would be cool to listen to a Zeitgeist without any vocals. I think I'd really enjoy a lot of the songs more.

I really hope the whole album gets a do over in 2014 or whatever after all the reissues. We're already supposed to get the Machinas remixed.

well, don't assume. everyone doesn't agree with you.

zeitgeist coulda been better by being not the album it is.

[the_farewell_party]

Here's how I think it could had been better:

"Doomsday Clock" and "United States" should have been a lot heavier, rawer and fuzzier sludge-esque songs.

"That's the Way (My Love Is)" could have had better, less typical pop-song lyrics have sounded more shoegazey. It's got a good melody.

In general, the album should have sounded less overproduced.

Maybe a little more dissonance on the album to balance out the more up-tempo songs. People call it a "dark" or "heavy" album or whatever, but I don't hear that. It's no darker than any other Pumpkins album.


I don't know much about audio engineering, but I think it'd take more than a remastering to fix the problems. Maybe a remixing, I don't know. But probably just re-recording. But they shouldn't bother trying too hard to salvage it because the deed's already done and the album's in the past and I don't think they would want to dwell on it, nor would anyone want to seem them do it. Definitely a lot of missed opportunities on the album, but you don't really get a take two. All he can do is do some of the songs justice when playing them live, like he's already done with "United States" and probably some others.

BTW, what makes this thread "assorted"? It does not resemble trail mix in the slightest.

[LostSoul]

Well said. I agree completely. That album had so much wasted potential...it pisses me off. Coulda been such a good comeback record, but he blew it.

I've heard United States live twice, Tarantula twice, Bleeding The Orchid once, and That's The Way once. They DEFINITELY come off much better live. Especially the late 2008 & 2010 versions.

[snail33]

the_farewell_party, on 13 April 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Here's how I think it could had been better:

"Doomsday Clock" and "United States" should have been a lot heavier, rawer and fuzzier sludge-esque songs.

you can dress those songs up or down however you want, heavier, acoustic, etc. they suck. they're WEAK SONGS.

"That's the Way (My Love Is)" could have had better, less typical pop-song lyrics have sounded more shoegazey. It's got a good melody.

it hasn't, and it's STILL not shoegazey. in the slightest.

In general, the album should have sounded less overproduced.

wouldn't matter.

Maybe a little more dissonance on the album to balance out the more up-tempo songs. People call it a "dark" or "heavy" album or whatever, but I don't hear that. It's no darker than any other Pumpkins album.

yes, it is. it's darker and heavier than EVERY pumpkins album. it wants to be some goth metal behemoth. it fails.

I don't know much about audio engineering, but I think it'd take more than a remastering to fix the problems. Maybe a remixing, I don't know. But probably just re-recording. But they shouldn't bother trying too hard to salvage it because the deed's already done and the album's in the past and I don't think they would want to dwell on it, nor would anyone want to seem them do it. Definitely a lot of missed opportunities on the album, but you don't really get a take two. All he can do is do some of the songs justice when playing them live, like he's already done with "United States" and probably some others.

it would take reWRITING to fix the problems.

BTW, what makes this thread "assorted"? It does not resemble trail mix in the slightest.

[the_farewell_party]

Took me a while to realize that you responded to my quote within my quote. I guess it's quicker than breaking the quote up and replying in between.

Quote

you can dress those songs up or down however you want, heavier, acoustic, etc. they suck. they're WEAK SONGS.

Well, I like "Doomsday Clock" and "United States". I just don't think the were done justice.

Quote

it hasn't, and it's STILL not shoegazey. in the slightest.

Which is why I think that it should have been. I wouldn't say that the song should had been shoegazey if it were already shoegazey.

Quote

wouldn't matter.

Would matter to me.

Quote

yes, it is. it's darker and heavier than EVERY pumpkins album. it wants to be some goth metal behemoth. it fails.

It's not darker than Adore or Machina. It's not heavier than MCIS. Pick the heaviest Zeitgeist song and place it next to "Bodies" (which isn't even the heaviest MCIS song) and see which one is heavier.

I hear nothing "goth" or "metal" on it. What I hear is riffy rock songs. Most of them not very artsy or arcane, it seems to just be "alternative rock" without the prefixes. Which is one of the flaws of the album, Billy played it safe and didn't take many risks, making the album somewhat mundane. If he tried to make a "goth metal behemoth", that would at least be interesting. But I still got songs I enjoy out of it.

Quote

it would take reWRITING to fix the problems.

I like a lot of the songs. The worst songs I don't hate, but just find boring.


But this is pretty much all moot, as Zeitgeist isn't an album likely to be revisited and we should probably be glad.

[werideatdusk]

It's a better album than people are willing to give it credit for. Just doesn't compare with the classic SP albums. Agree that the production is weird. But Jimmy's drums have never sounded better. On songs like "Starz" and "United States" the production really serves the music, BOMBAST!

The vocals are all too loud and limply delivered. The nuance in his singing is not there in most of the songs (aside from Neverlost and Pomp and Circumstances). The bass in For God and COuntry is way too loud, and why are the drums looped?

Would love to hear the raw rough mixes which I imagine sound like "FOL".

Oh, and I think "Come On Let's Go" is a very underrated song. Very high-energy.

[ZivotSon]

Hall of Famer Larry Robinson, when he coached the struggling LA Kings back in the 1990s, summed it up perfectly: "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit."

The best songs on Zeitgeist aren't that great (by SP standards).

The average songs are below average.

The worst songs are pretty bad.

There are many ways the record could have been improved, but it still wouldn't have been that great because the songs on the whole were an inferior collection.

Every great artist is entitled to a dud every once and awhile. This is Billy's.

And, yes, I still listen to it from time to time.

[snail33]

werideatdusk, on 19 April 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

It's a better album than people are willing to give it credit for. Just doesn't compare with the classic SP albums. Agree that the production is weird. But Jimmy's drums have never sounded better. On songs like "Starz" and "United States" the production really serves the music, BOMBAST!

The vocals are all too loud and limply delivered. The nuance in his singing is not there in most of the songs (aside from Neverlost and Pomp and Circumstances). The bass in For God and COuntry is way too loud, and why are the drums looped?

Would love to hear the raw rough mixes which I imagine sound like "FOL".

Oh, and I think "Come On Let's Go" is a very underrated song. Very high-energy.

nope.

nothing to do with vocals, delivery, attitude, production, nuance, comparison to previous albums, loudness, loops, etc etc etc.

THE SONGS ARE BAD.

FOL included. and glow. and superchrist. etc.

[quote name='the_farewell_party' timestamp='1334473595' post='673972']
Took me a while to realize that you responded to my quote within my quote. I guess it's quicker than breaking the quote up and replying in between.


Which is why I think that it should have been. I wouldn't say that the song should had been shoegazey if it were already shoegazey.

you said it should have been "MORE shoegazey", which would imply that it was somewhat shoegazey to begin with.

[adamdanger!]

From a guitar standpoint, the songs are too riffy, with little use of octaves, twinkling guitar lines or "Pumpkin chords". Those are things I associate with Billy's best work. I think that's what makes Stellar and Ma Belle and even FOL more interesting.

[dudehitscar]

adamdanger!, on 20 April 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

From a guitar standpoint, the songs are too riffy, with little use of octaves, twinkling guitar lines or "Pumpkin chords". Those are things I associate with Billy's best work. I think that's what makes Stellar and Ma Belle and even FOL more interesting.

the 'riff' on Doomsday clock is especially boring and slow. Then those lifeless vocals come in.. good lord what a terrible track.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

Doomsday Clock wants to come crashing out of the gate, but it just falls into an oddly placed buffet table and squirms around in pudding.

[_Revolution_Blues]

TwoHeadedBoy, on 20 April 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Doomsday Clock wants to come crashing out of the gate, but it just falls into an oddly placed buffet table and squirms around in pudding.

lmao,this^..... whatever it means haha.....i think zeitgiest is underrated but still the worst pumpkins album. all the songs you said should be included, some b sides from the bands history should be in proper albums, such as me belle and stellar in this instance.

I'm beginning to like zeitgesit more these days, i love the sound of the guitars and jimmy's drumming is just incredible :D/>

[TwoHeadedBoy]

If the production had been looser, with real-sounding guitars, well leveled vocals and a faster tempo (instead of the bafflingly slow tempo they recorded it at), Doomsday Clock COULD have worked. It's not an amazing tune, but with energy, it could have started Zeitgeist off on the right foot.

[DTA]

Vocals and drab production. Fix those two and you have a brilliant album. I actually don't feel like there's any truly bad songs. Fixing the vox/production could make the really good songs become brilliant.

[dudehitscar]

DTA, on 21 April 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

Vocals and drab production. Fix those two and you have a brilliant album. I actually don't feel like there's any truly bad songs. Fixing the vox/production could make the really good songs become brilliant.

I disagree that the songs are brilliant. I mean even with mcis production they would all easily still pale in comparison to most of Billy's pre 2000 work.

This post has been edited by dudehitscar: 21 April 2012 - 06:00 AM

[Parksey]

dudehitscar, on 21 April 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

I disagree that the songs are brilliant. I mean even with mcis production they would all easily still pale in comparison to most of Billy's pre 2000 work.

Good production on songs like Stellar, That's The Way, United States, Bleeding the Orchid and we've got a few classics. I like all of those songs as they are now, but they could have been even better.

I think Tarantula is fine as it is.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

People love United States, but I just don't get it. The overlong meandering "spacey" guitar-noodling section really kills the vibe. And the "la la las" are.... ugh.

[LostSoul]

To be honest, I disliked it until I heard it live.

[dudehitscar]

Parksey, on 21 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

I think Tarantula is fine as it is.

what is tarantula about?

[snail33]

[quote name='Parksey' timestamp='1335020183' post='675579']
Good production on songs like Stellar, That's The Way, United States, Bleeding the Orchid and we've got a few classics.

no, we haven't. because those are bad songs.

[quote name='DTA' timestamp='1335008684' post='675529']
Vocals and drab production. Fix those two and you have a brilliant album.

no you don't.


I actually don't feel like there's any truly bad songs.


you feel wrong.


Fixing the vox/production could make the really good songs become brilliant.


there are no really good songs.


[/quote]

[LostSoul]

Miserable people are fun.

You know what else is fun? Black holes. And roads with heavy traffic. I dabble in those myself, once in a while.

Oh, and quick sand. Though in your case, the sand might just spit you back out because you're severely unpleasant.

[dudehitscar]

Parksey, on 21 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

Good production on songs like Stellar, That's The Way, United States, Bleeding the Orchid and we've got a few classics. I like all of those songs as they are now, but they could have been even better.

I think Tarantula is fine as it is.

I agree with you on United States and Stellar. That's the way has a uninspired chorus and bleeding the orchid is a half backed alice in chains song IMO. Not that I dislike them completely but they are hardly classics.

[Graceful_Swan]

I'm not a fan of Billy's vocals since he got voice lessons in '98. It's only a small thing but it kind of ruined anything post MCIS for me. I'm very particular.

[dudehitscar]

Graceful_Swan, on 23 April 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I'm not a fan of Billy's vocals since he got voice lessons in '98. It's only a small thing but it kind of ruined anything post MCIS for me. I'm very particular.

Adore's vocals are perfect.

[Graceful_Swan]

dudehitscar, on 23 April 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Adore's vocals are perfect.

Adore is beautiful-I'd just like it to be slightly more imperfect.

[Deleted User Account]

Parksey, on 21 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

Good production on songs like Stellar, That's The Way, United States, Bleeding the Orchid and we've got a few classics. I like all of those songs as they are now, but they could have been even better.

I think Tarantula is fine as it is.

Why do people keep calling Stellar a good song? Its vocal melody is SO uninspired. Yes, instrumentally it's beautiful, but it's covering the same ground as FutureEmbrace, and he did it WAY better on that album.

[awsmsc]

I'm glad someone pointed out tempo. That's another issue. Doomsday Clock in particular was very slow. It's difficult to have good vocals when the song is that slow but also trying to be rockin.

TwoHeadedBoy, on 21 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

People love United States, but I just don't get it. The overlong meandering "spacey" guitar-noodling section really kills the vibe. And the "la la las" are.... ugh.

I like the spacey, but yes, the "la la las" were terrible. Also, there's the percussion "tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap" that starts early and occupies most of the song. It's totally pointless. The song would've been way better without them.

It's so funny. I'd love that song with these two problems fixed, but they're so annoying. Zeitgeist may the biggest wasted potential event in history, except for that botched Hitler assassination attempt in 1944.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

Another thing is that towards the end of the song, Billy's vocals have a delay/modulation effect that is bafflingly awful. GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!

[february]

Just get the nut biting penguin off of Billy.

[awsmsc]

TwoHeadedBoy, on 25 April 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Another thing is that towards the end of the song, Billy's vocals have a delay/modulation effect that is bafflingly awful. GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!

I liked that.

[mkoasis]

I like the album, apart from "For God and Country". I'm surprised to see so many fans have issues with it - I knew critics did.

[frednirv632]

so here's the real question: how long before people proclaim this album to be a classic?

[awsmsc]

won't happen.

[Elphenor]

frednirv632, on 28 April 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

so here's the real question: how long before people proclaim this album to be a classic?

The better question is:

How long until we can all forget about this disaster?

[amu1167]

I had to dust it off and give it another listen after someone recently brought up how it was a shame that it was not well received, in another thread. I never disliked it, it just felt rather harsh.There have been a lot of times I didn't originally care for some SP songs, and later they grew on me. I think the dvd that came with it was really great, and hope to see more things like that show up. I still think Stellar is awesome, esp. that guitar solo at 3:30.

[themadcaplaughs]

Quote

People love United States, but I just don't get it. The overlong meandering "spacey" guitar-noodling section really kills the vibe. And the "la la las" are.... ugh.

Of the many times Billy has had great potential with a song live and then made...questionable...decision in the studio, this takes the cake. Absolutely BRUTAL (in the best possible way) when it was played live: even with Mike on drums. On record though, it just sounds sterile and lifeless.

[awsmsc]

Elphenor, on 29 April 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

How long until we can all forget about this disaster?

06/19/12

[dudehitscar]

themadcaplaughs, on 30 April 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Of the many times Billy has had great potential with a song live and then made...questionable...decision in the studio, this takes the cake. Absolutely BRUTAL (in the best possible way) when it was played live: even with Mike on drums. On record though, it just sounds sterile and lifeless.

Not to mention that the crowd adding to the song breakdown and billy changing the last minute or so a lot.

[blanket_skies]

the_farewell_party, on 13 April 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

In general, the album should have sounded less overproduced.

As much as I'm sick of hearing this argument, I'd have to agree this is what it boils down to. Particularly For God and Country they absolutely DESTROYED that song with production. Although I'm not sure overproduced is the right way of saying it, I think badly produced is more accurate, because Mellon Collie was also heavily produced, but it was produced correctly to perfection that enhanced rather than took away from the quality

And by the way, I feel the same way about production in Zeitgeist as I do about it in Adore and Machina. Live versions of Adore are a million times better than studio versions. And the production in Machina bothered me much more than that of Zeitgeist.

[frednirv632]

awsmsc, on 29 April 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

won't happen.

I hate to say it, but you're wrong. I am by no means saying that Zeitgeist is a classic, let alone a good record. I'm just basing my question on two tings:

1. The history of this band. Everything since ,and including, Adore has been shat on by the majority of 'fans'. Hell, even and MCIS and SD got some negative reactions due to bearing little resemblance to their predecessors. However, Adore and Machina are now very highly regarded by the community overall.

2. This board's (and the overall online community) general opinion of ZG through time. When the record came out 90% of people hated it and made sure everyone knew it. People who would defend the record got torn to shreds. Although that still happens to some degree, I see more and more individuals standing up for this album when others disparage it.

I am well aware that this album is still regarded as some of SP's worst output by many, but you can't deny that the community's reaction is getting a little better all the time.

[dudehitscar]

blanket_skies, on 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

And by the way, I feel the same way about production in Zeitgeist as I do about it in Adore and Machina. Live versions of Adore are a million times better than studio versions. And the production in Machina bothered me much more than that of Zeitgeist.

You're just out of your freaking mind. plain and simple.
To suggest that Zeitgeist piece of crap is even in the same universe, let alone BETTER productionthan Machina is the most insane thing I EVER heard in my life




:lick:/>

[blanket_skies]

dudehitscar, on 30 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

You're just out of your freaking mind. plain and simple.
To suggest that Zeitgeist piece of crap is even in the same universe, let alone BETTER productionthan Machina is the most insane thing I EVER heard in my life




:lick:/>

Geez, why does that sound familar :scatch:/>

[dudehitscar]

blanket_skies, on 30 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Geez, why does that sound familar :scatch:/>

:lol:/>