[mattsevrens]

I think there should be a thread where we actually specifically give feedback about the things in the new songs we love and the things we think should change. I think billy doesn't like coming here because its usually "this song sucks or this song is good" and its hard to search through the content of the site for the real criticism from the fans. You can also rate them if you want, I think thats good info to give.

Rules 1) needs to be short, no more than a few sentences for each song so Billy or Kerry can read a whole lot of these 2) needs to give positive AND negative criticism. I think that if we get this thread with enough responses, and get billy to take notice, he can really get a sense of what the fans want. Or course, if he doesn't read it, hell at least we tried to arrange our thoughts clearly for him to see, and reached out you know? Only write about songs you like.

I'll start:

Overall: I think the quality of material post G.L.O.W. release has been fantastic. Certainly there's dud songs, but I'm liking this stuff more than anything I've liked since zwan. I think some of the songs are good enough to be on mellon collie or siamese dream, but others still have "why the hell would he do that moments". I also still thing production could ruin any of these songs.

Owata - Jeff's guitar is essential, the tone of that is perfect. I didn't like the sound of the chris isaac recordings at all. This sounds best () It's like the same concept as 99 floors but executed better. Drum beat really made the song in some ways. Piano part is good where it is. Like the organs. Some people think the lyrics are stupid.

Song for a son - Great song, I really like the melody of this song and the arrangement from the 20th anniversary tour, the whole thing is very unique. Lyrics give people a sense they know you whether thats true or not. The beat from the 20th anniversary tour is ESSENTIAL, dont lose that. The more down acoustic sound from the sits tour is better maybe? Try to merge the two.

The Fellowship - The verse is really great, don't change anything. The violin and beat are perfect. Keys sound awesome too. Chorus is awesome. I hope this one is still acoustic, capture the sound from the shows. Kind of very new sound for you, don't know if stuck up fans of just mellon collie or SD will like it but people who've never heard you will definately. One of my favorites.

Astral Planes - Great song, really catchy in the main riff. The bridge and intro riff are great too, and I think Linda adds a lot to the song. However, the absence of a vocal verse makes it kind of repetitive. Maybe find a vocal hook to lay over that intro riff. Sounds more like a classic than anything you've written in 10 years. Very unique hook.

Emerald Green is the Color - Really great altogether but maybe needs some more places where you are singing. Don't change anything, just add. The second guitar riff at the end is great. The DRUMS are the shit. Theres one drum thing at the end of the beat during the main part that I cant explain but is AWESOME. Congas actually work really well here. I like the bass on the eighth notes during the chorus, and other parts where you mimic this sound. Stay acoustic.

West Coast - This song should stay acoustic. The bridge and verse are great. The bridge takes you someplace you didn't expect. Obviously the chorus needs words. The arrangement is perfect. Has a little bit of the goof sound. Keys and second guitar fit awesome.

Freak - I loved it at first but then I started thinking it was lame. I think the electric version MAKES the song. The acoustic version is an amusing flourish. I don't know why it grew old on me. Maybe a little TOO Zwanny. But I think a lot of people are fans of this song so it SHOULD be recorded.

Widow Wake My Mind: Stay acoustic I think. The oh's are goofy maybe write lyrics for that part that are still simple. It's catchy, but it has this touch of goofy which is bad. But i still like it... Sometimes I like it a lot.

Theres my list. Maybe he wont read this, maybe no one will comment. But I'd feel bad If at the end of this project, it came out bad, and it's because the fans didn't try to clearly say what they want. Obviously he can do whatever he wants with the songs, but because I think most of us can say we really like the new material it's kind of our duty to say specifically what we think so the songs can end up perfect and smashing pumpkins can reattain some of their former glory!

[bleakest_harvest]

ITT we tell Billy what to do. Lovely.

[mattsevrens]

what's ITT? And not like we TELL him like we're making him, but like let him him what the common people think.

Who else is going to listen and really spell out what they think? Critics? no way, theyre jaded from too much music. I think constructive non bullshit criticism is rare to come by, even for billy.

and you know what? People have been complaining about the albums for a while. This is a place for us to SPELL IT OUT you know? and if there's enough people maybe a general consensus could arise. And you know what? Maybe we'll end up with a better album from it.

[frednirv632]

ITT = in this thread

[cahiers]

How bout we wait for the songs to be released before we release our pent up frustrations?

[Cundinama]

^^^

[pyrocus]

I don't think that they would be Smashing Pumpkins songs if Billy didn't do them the way HE wants them to be done. Just chill dude, everything will be alright.

[joaopedro7]

i get your point, but i dont think that the fans should have an influence in the music, sp is my favourite band cause billy always had a way to surprise me and i never get tired of HIS music cause the nuances of his work were always ahead of his time and were never clear, so we discover the music, i dont want predictable boring music.
we need to TRUST him

[stipemanblue]

I think there should be a thread where we actually specifically give feedback about the things in the new songs we love and the things we think should change. I think billy doesn't like coming here because its usually "this song sucks or this song is good" and its hard to search through the content of the site for the real criticism from the fans. You can also rate them if you want, I think thats good info to give.

Rules 1) needs to be short, no more than a few sentences for each song so Billy or Kerry can read a whole lot of these 2) needs to give positive AND negative criticism. I think that if we get this thread with enough responses, and get billy to take notice, he can really get a sense of what the fans want. Or course, if he doesn't read it, hell at least we tried to arrange our thoughts clearly for him to see, and reached out you know? Only write about songs you like.

I'll start:

Overall: I think the quality of material post G.L.O.W. release has been fantastic. Certainly there's dud songs, but I'm liking this stuff more than anything I've liked since zwan. I think some of the songs are good enough to be on mellon collie or siamese dream, but others still have "why the hell would he do that moments". I also still thing production could ruin any of these songs.

Owata - Jeff's guitar is essential, the tone of that is perfect. I didn't like the sound of the chris isaac recordings at all. This sounds best () It's like the same concept as 99 floors but executed better. Drum beat really made the song in some ways. Piano part is good where it is. Like the organs. Some people think the lyrics are stupid.

Song for a son - Great song, I really like the melody of this song and the arrangement from the 20th anniversary tour, the whole thing is very unique. Lyrics give people a sense they know you whether thats true or not. The beat from the 20th anniversary tour is ESSENTIAL, dont lose that. The more down acoustic sound from the sits tour is better maybe? Try to merge the two.

The Fellowship - The verse is really great, don't change anything. The violin and beat are perfect. Keys sound awesome too. Chorus is awesome. I hope this one is still acoustic, capture the sound from the shows. Kind of very new sound for you, don't know if stuck up fans of just mellon collie or SD will like it but people who've never heard you will definately. One of my favorites.

Astral Planes - Great song, really catchy in the main riff. The bridge and intro riff are great too, and I think Linda adds a lot to the song. However, the absence of a vocal verse makes it kind of repetitive. Maybe find a vocal hook to lay over that intro riff. Sounds more like a classic than anything you've written in 10 years. Very unique hook.

Emerald Green is the Color - Really great altogether but maybe needs some more places where you are singing. Don't change anything, just add. The second guitar riff at the end is great. The DRUMS are the shit. Theres one drum thing at the end of the beat during the main part that I cant explain but is AWESOME. Congas actually work really well here. I like the bass on the eighth notes during the chorus, and other parts where you mimic this sound. Stay acoustic.

West Coast - This song should stay acoustic. The bridge and verse are great. The bridge takes you someplace you didn't expect. Obviously the chorus needs words. The arrangement is perfect. Has a little bit of the goof sound. Keys and second guitar fit awesome.

Freak - I loved it at first but then I started thinking it was lame. I think the electric version MAKES the song. The acoustic version is an amusing flourish. I don't know why it grew old on me. Maybe a little TOO Zwanny. But I think a lot of people are fans of this song so it SHOULD be recorded.

Widow Wake My Mind: Stay acoustic I think. The oh's are goofy maybe write lyrics for that part that are still simple. It's catchy, but it has this touch of goofy which is bad. But i still like it... Sometimes I like it a lot.

Theres my list. Maybe he wont read this, maybe no one will comment. But I'd feel bad If at the end of this project, it came out bad, and it's because the fans didn't try to clearly say what they want. Obviously he can do whatever he wants with the songs, but because I think most of us can say we really like the new material it's kind of our duty to say specifically what we think so the songs can end up perfect and smashing pumpkins can reattain some of their former glory!

Do you think Teargarden is going to have a Beatles White Album vibe? With so many songs, what other big albums can you really compare it to? Thanks for your imput.

[Cundinama]

like billy said, the songs he performed at the SITS shows were what he considered his so-so songs. he's aware of the fact that they do need work.

that being said, i'm excited to hear his better quality songs.

[explodingkid]

am I the only one who really dislikes Linda's vocals? :/

[Cundinama]

i think her voice kind of overpowered billy during the SITS shows.
have you heard her other stuff with billy?
like from the spun soundtrack?
their voices go really well together actually.

[explodingkid]

yeah, but I was talking about these new songs
I don't feel like they work well with them

[cahiers]

am I the only one who really dislikes Linda's vocals? :/

No. The less we hear of her the better.

[artycaz]

Sorry.....I don't mean to be offensive...but like my Grandma says "Opinions are like assholes every one has one"

I know I would get very annoyed if at every aspect of my creativity there was someone leaning over me with a whole load of critique and comments.

I am a creative person I develop new ideas and businesses and I'm not saying that I don't expect some critisism...and even welcome it at times.....and I'm not saying that maybe I should have done some things differently. I believe in letting things take it's natural course.

They also say "You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time"

I think this is a new path in Billy's life and please alllow him some breathing space to evolve naturally....Please have some respect for the man...he has already given most of his life!

The mere fact the man hasn't just went F.U and quit the whole business and spent the rest of his life on a trip of self discovery!

We should be thanking our lucky stars he is sticking with us and we are privilaged to share his visions for the future.

I understand peoples compassion and I am not for one minute disputing that you don't have Billy's best interests at heart.

[ShamanO]

no point in criticizing we only heard the stuff live...and it was like a practice run.
Let's wait it out. And I have a feeling people won't be complaining..they will be awed by the magic of this album.
I have a feeling it's going to top Mellon Collie and this will be his greatest work of art

[pumpkinpenchant]

er..emerald green is the color of my birthstone...so, go ahead...guess which month i was born in. la la lal al la. i don't make rules, i break 'em. no, not really just kidding.

[pyrocus]

Emerald Green is the colour of my birthstone too.

[pumpkinpenchant]

Emerald Green is the colour of my birthstone too.

so ...lemme guess.....you were born in may!!

[pyrocus]

Hey, you've won the showcase showdown!

[pumpkinpenchant]

Tell me what i've won, Bob.

[KidCorgan]

This thread should be about 'praise and criticism' , instead of 'criticism and praise'. We sp fans can be so negative ...

[pyrocus]

Tell me what i've won, Bob.

Who? My name is Drew sir.....

[rosenkreuzer]

i don't want to read your criticism of the music. there are enough critics in the world. music is personal to me for the most part, so i don't share my opinions with others either, as i feel like it's pompous and pointless.

just my two cents.

can you adopt me please, manillascissor

[mattsevrens]

This is retarded. Billy said himself JUST RECENTLY, he was annoyed that he spent all that time holed up in the studio, and then he got out and found out everyone was upset with the sound.

SP fans have been bitching for years. BILLY HAS SAID ON MULTIPLE TIMES HE DOESNT KNOW WHAT FANS WANT. This is a chance for us to clearly say clearly why we love the new and what things need to be changed?

I dont fucking understand smashing pumpkins fans. They're all selfish whiny little bitches. All you do is bitch and complain about the music and never try to reach out to billy and say this is what I like this is what I don't like. You go around this fucking forum, rating the songs on the albums, playing elimination games, AFTER they've been released? How does that help him grow as an artist?

You're just perpetuating the HATE. READ MY REVIEW, its full of a lot of praise, and a few comments, it's mostly glowing, but i ACTUALLY say specifically what I like AND what I don't like.

[cahiers]

You're living in the past.

[mattsevrens]

I honestly believe that if no one says anything now they have no right to complain in the future. Seriously, I know we're gonna see some "Why didn't this song get recorded!" or "why is there that awful harmonized solo at the end of WWMM. Or "why are the oh's still there! Or "why does the recording of astral planes just sound like the production of glow!" Or even worse "why did they take out this awesome part!!

I'm telling you. As a songwriter its really difficult to get real analytical praise and criticism. You don't know how often it is that you play a song and someones like "I like it" and you say "why?" and they say "I dunno" or vice versa.

If there was more communication from the fans, maybe virex wouldn't have turned into the imploding voice. Maybe the early zwan songs would ACTUALLY be on the album. Maybe MSOTS wouldnt be so compressed, maybe it would have more balls. Maybe Zeitgeist wouldnt have billy's Vox so high, maybe it would be more complex. Maybe Everlasting Gaze wouldnt have the accapella bridge that most people (except me hate). Maybe the songs from american gothic would have more drums and more to them. Maybe the track list to IAGW would make more... sense and be less random and obscure. Maybe Glow wouldn't have the vocals "come on can you feel it" AGAIN. Maybe bring the light would have been a single

These are all things that people complained about AFTER the fact.

We know that Billy's recording Astral Planes and WWMM. Song for a Son and Owata probably will. So will freak. The Fellowship probably will. Kerrys comment about the sitar suggests that EGITC probably will. Try actually saying something, even if its just "DONT CHANGE A THING I LOVE IT"

[easternmind]

i don't want to read your criticism of the music. there are enough critics in the world. music is personal to me for the most part, so i don't share my opinions with others either, as i feel like it's pompous and pointless.

just my two cents.

100% agreed!

I know that when I make music, I don't give a flying fuck (I love that phrase) what people think about my songs, and I think Billy doesn't either.

People complained about every SP album BEFORE and AFTER they came out. Every one of them. I just want Billy do to whatever he wants. If I like it, that's awesome. I'm sure I will. If I don't, oh well. There are so many good bands out there.

[mattsevrens]

*rolls eyes*

for example @pyrocus. You seem to have a very musical mind. You could comment what keys you think billy's voice sounds best in. We've seen a couple of voices from him that fit different songs, (I.E. djali zwan voice is very different than Sounds of Silence voice) what range does billy sound best in? Should he be singing any of the songs in different keys?

[mattsevrens]

And I totally disagree about the not wanting to hear what people think. As a song writer thats just ignorant as fuck. Certainly, its up to your digression to do whatever you want to a song, but ignoring what people say is just stupid. Unless you only play your songs for yourself in your room, you're playing for an audience.

And you know what? Billy DOES listen to fans, the ones that speak the loudest! The ignorant stupid ones. The ones who like him singing "Come on can you feel it" for fourteen songs. The ones who wanted zeitgeist to be a plain rock album. The ones who always want the second single to be poppier in the vein of today or 1979 and be about love "Real love" "Thats the way my love is" Stand inside your love"

So maybe people should actually give some feedback, because its relatively clear he does listen.

The whole point of doing this one track at a time for free thing is so people ACTUALLY listen to the whole song before making a judgement based on what someone else says. He clearly cares what people think. I don't see a reason to reach out with positive criticism.

[pyrocus]

*rolls eyes*

for example @pyrocus. You seem to have a very musical mind. You could comment what keys you think billy's voice sounds best in. We've seen a couple of voices from him that fit different songs, (I.E. djali zwan voice is very different than Sounds of Silence voice) what range does billy sound best in? Should he be singing any of the songs in different keys?

Why, thank you Matt! For me, Billy's voice was one of the main things that first attracted me to SP. I have such a variety of musical tastes and that is one of the reasons why SP remains my favorite band. So basically I'm just saying that I've never been one of those fans that were hard to please. I pretty much love anything that Billy does because he and I have a lot of the same musical influences.

Matt, you aren't going to find the kind of intelligent, thoughtful responses you want here. You will have to go to Netphoria for a more balanced view.

No I'm not kidding when I say that fanboys and fangirls

I think Matt would get A LOT more shit over this thread at Netphoria......

[easternmind]

And I totally disagree about the not wanting to hear what people think. As a song writer thats just ignorant as fuck. Certainly, its up to your digression to do whatever you want to a song, but ignoring what people say is just stupid. Unless you only play your songs for yourself in your room, you're playing for an audience.

You and I have different opinions about this. Do you think that Billy played his first show and thought to himself, "Yeah, this is what they want to hear!" Hell no. People started coming to shows as a byproduct of the sound he wanted to play, NOT the other way around. It only makes sense to me to play music for people who like what I play, BECAUSE I play it that way.

I don't play music for people BECAUSE they want me to play it that way. That seems silly. Do you think any of the great artists were unique/stood out/legendary because they played how other people wanted them to? Certainly not.

It's not "ignorant as fuck," it's "playing whatever the fuck I want, because it's my music, and that's why I play to begin with."

By the way, are you a musician?

[rosenkreuzer]

jeah, they find every little poop to complain about again and again

[pyrocus]

He will get shit, but he will also get people who are willing to deconstruct the songs to insane degrees, for good and bad.

Yeah, mostly for bad.

[mattsevrens]

I hate netphoria, they're so negative over there. And hateful. No positive. I for one love everything that billy does. I just hate it when people complain after the fact.

You know, the whole point of the SITS tour was to get feedback about those songs? Like... that was the stated purpose. I'm confused how you could take that information and say "billy doesn't want to hear what we think"

Don't you guys remember when he posted that paper about the art of criticism. I think the point there was that he wants criticism, but INTELLIGENT criticism. I truly think that there was a point for that paper, and it wasn't just "shut up I don't care what you think" otherwise he would have just said that. He was reaching out there I think, maybe we should listen to that and respond.

[pyrocus]

I think Netphoria has blocked my ability to post threads there. E-mailed one of the mods and never got a response back. So I decided not to go there anymore. Everyone has their little stupid cliques over there anyway.

[joaopedro7]

netphoria is a nursing home

[mattsevrens]

@pyrocus, they probably blocked you because you said you liked the smashing pumpkins. Lol.

Btw, I noticed that you were excited that we were getting WWMM in the main album thread. I'm curious though, what do you think about that 7 second clip? Sounds like hes adding a guitar solo to the song which wasn't in the SITS shows. It also sounds like its harmonized with another guitar which... I'm hesitant about. The harmonized solo is a fun thing for stuff like As Rome Burns and Bring the light, but I don't know if that tone lends itself to this song...

[pyrocus]

Only if it's just in that section it could be golden. At first it sounded like two different solos. but when I listen back it was harmonized. For ASB & BTL it works because those songs are pretty high energy, but I don't know about WWMM - if it's just that little section then it should be fine.

[BitterRootOfSelf]

i disagree those harmonies are awesome sounding to me

[hollywood_weasel]

I'n glad to see that Song for a Son showed up on the SITS tour. Kinda gives more hope to the fact that it will be recorded.

I've lost hope on any studio Gossamer at this point. I guess the best we will have for it are the anniversary tour soundboards and the IAGW jam session. Which I'm fine with, because it does make those recordings more special to me. I just think it's such a masterpiece that it's a shame not to record it. Watching it's evolution was a truly amazing musical experience.

My only worry with this new stuff, and which seems to have been a recurring theme post zeitgeist - all the best songs seem to hit the cutting room floor for whatever reason. As Rome Burns, Owata, Gossamer, A Song for a Son, as well as some of the residency tracks. The only one they really ever got around to doing was Superchrist, which while fucking awesome, I ironically prefer the AOL session version to the studio version.

Everybody is buzzing over The Trip more than any other song, and they refused to confirm that they were going to record it in those vids.

Here's hoping its simply to build anticipation and that the trend gets broken and it makes it into the studio [possibly even with Dave Navarro AND Shredder]. I have a feeling that could take SP 2.0 to the next level on the ricter scale of epicness.

Wasn't a huge fan of Widow Make My Mind at first, but it's definitely growing on me. The thought of hearing anything close to the beauty of the Love to Love recording with Linda Strawberry makes me shiver. Anyone who can't appreciate how their voices mesh is simply not a fan of music in my books.

This post has been edited by hollywood_weasel: 02 October 2009 - 08:56 PM

[mattsevrens]

can you imagine how difficult a studio version of gossamer would be to do with tape? I mean sure, you could do one with protools, but 25 minutes is still half an lp. And Lps take weeks, months or even years to record.

You know, I dont think owata, as rome burns, and song for a son are on the cutting room floor. Billy said he might play owata at the SITS shows so I think its still alive. I'm not sure about as rome burns though.

[mattsevrens]

Can I ask a question? Am I the only one who thinks the material from the SITS shows is absolutely amazing and redeeming for everything thing he's done post Zwan?