[LostSoul]

I am certain this has been done before, in fact I know it has. However, most of these lists contain biases due to your personal liking of a song. So, I'm asking this. On a higher level than just your own tastes, what list would you compile to reflect the greatest things Corgan & Co. have penned under the Pumpkins' moniker? Studio mostly, but I will accept live if you feel it so strongly belongs. I am aiming more for a list of 30 than just 10. Not necessarily in order from best to least, as I am merely listing mine chronologically.

Here's mine:

1. Siva
2. Crush
3. Rhinoceros
4. Glynis
5. Cherub Rock
6. Hummer
7. Disarm
8. Soma
9. Mayonaise
10. Geek USA
11. Tonight, Tonight
12. Muzzle
13. Porcelina Of The Vast Oceans
14. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby
15. XYU
16. Set The Ray To Jerry
17. Cherry
18. Rotten Apples
19. Eye
20. Behold! The Night Mare
21. For Martha
22. Blank Page
23. Stand Inside Your Love
24. Let Me Give The World To You
25. Speed Kills (SIYL Single Version)
26. Soot & Stars
27. Gossamer

Go. :happy:/>

Note: I hold The Crying Tree Of Mercury in very high regard, and think it is one of their best. Even if just for the lyrics and vocals. However, I do not think most would agree with that. And I meant to list Starla, but forgot. Too much work to go back.

This post has been edited by LostSoul: 08 February 2012 - 08:02 AM

[dudehitscar]

Siva (live only)
Hummer
Disarm
Soma
Wound
Home
Where the Boys Fear to Tread
XYU
1979
Cupide De Locke
With Every Light
Bodies
Behold The Nightmare
Blank Page
Ava Adore
Daphne Descends
Hello Kitty Kat
Obscured
Thirty Three
Fuck You
Thru The Eyes of Ruby
Zero
Rotten Apples (live)
Glass and The Ghost Children
Crying Tree of Mercury
Blue Skies Bring Tears (heavy)
Lucky 13
Gossamer (live... NOT the If All Goes Wrong rendition or any with really bad vocals)
Geek USA
Mayonaise
By Starlight
Stumbeline



The amazing thing is when I look at this list I can think of another 30 that are almost as good as most of the songs here.. The pumpkins are like a bottomless well of great material.

[LostSoul]

I know, right? Near everything they did 1988-2000 was completely A-Grade quality and consistent. Then, we even have a couple gems from the 2007-2011 era (though not many). Hopefully with Oceania, we will have more to add to the list of great tracks.

[JOHNO]

Way too many to list, but my all time top 5 have got to be Hummer, Mayo, Soma, Muzzle and Geek USA. (3 of these beautys were played on the last tour, Happy effing days!!!)



Cheers

[LostSoul]

I'm lucky enough to have heard all of those you listed live since the reformation. Though the energy on this tour was definitely the best since the reformation. I never would have guessed that Billy still had the energy to play Geek USA effectively, nor Mike the chops to do so. I was wrong. :thumbsup:/>

[JOHNO]

LostSoul, on 08 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I'm lucky enough to have heard all of those you listed live since the reformation. Though the energy on this tour was definitely the best since the reformation. I never would have guessed that Billy still had the energy to play Geek USA effectively, nor Mike the chops to do so. I was wrong. :thumbsup:/>

Agree with you 100%, went to both gigs at (02 Brixton, London)it was much more powerful than the gig at the 02 arena a few years , mind you last years setlist was unreal!!!

cheers

[Inertia]

LostSoul, on 08 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

I am certain this has been done before, in fact I know it has. However, most of these lists contain biases due to your personal liking of a song. So, I'm asking this. On a higher level than just your own tastes, what list would you compile to reflect the greatest things Corgan & Co. have penned under the Pumpkins' moniker? Studio mostly, but I will accept live if you feel it so strongly belongs. I am aiming more for a list of 30 than just 10. Not necessarily in order from best to least, as I am merely listing mine chronologically.

Here's mine:

1. Siva
2. Crush
3. Rhinoceros
4. Glynis
5. Cherub Rock
6. Hummer
7. Disarm
8. Soma
9. Mayonaise
10. Geek USA
11. Tonight, Tonight
12. Muzzle
13. Porcelina Of The Vast Oceans
14. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby
15. XYU
16. Set The Ray To Jerry
17. Cherry
18. Rotten Apples
19. Eye
20. Behold! The Night Mare
21. For Martha
22. Blank Page
23. Stand Inside Your Love
24. Let Me Give The World To You
25. Speed Kills (SIYL Single Version)
26. Soot & Stars
27. Gossamer

Go. :happy:/>

Note: I hold The Crying Tree Of Mercury in very high regard, and think it is one of their best. Even if just for the lyrics and vocals. However, I do not think most would agree with that. And I meant to list Starla, but forgot. Too much work to go back.

I'm assuming you want a more "objective" list. If so, are you saying what are the best songs in terms of technicality, originality, lyrically, or some combination of those 3 that adds up to a final score?

[RottingApples]

As objectively as one could muster: ;)/>


Siva
Hummer
Soma
Silverfuck
Obscured
Starla
MCIS
Galapogos
Muzzle
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
Thirty-Three
Thru the Eyes of Ruby
Beautiful
Set the Ray to Jerry
Rotten Apples
The Last Song
To Sheila
For Martha
Blank Page
Once in a While
Blissed and Gone
Let Me Give the World to You
Soot and Stars
Stand Inside Your Love
Glass and the Ghost Children
Slow Dawn
If There is a God
The Rose March
Gossamer
Question Mark

[LostSoul]

Inertia, on 08 February 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm assuming you want a more "objective" list. If so, are you saying what are the best songs in terms of technicality, originality, lyrically, or some combination of those 3 that adds up to a final score?

Any combination of the 3. Those with the perfect balance. Or even if just one or two of those elements are so masterfully performed that the other doesn't even matter, it is just that good. :p/>

[snail33]

my "objective" list and my subjective list, when it comes to SP (because they are at the top of it all for me), would be identical. i can't think of any SP song where i would say "well, this isn't really one of their best but i still love it so it goes on my list"...if i love it, i think it's great. and thusly, the topic i posted a while back about "name your top 33 SP songs" would basically be the same as this topic.

but i will do it again off the top of the dome, just to go back after and see if it changed at all.

1 thru the eyes of ruby
2 stand inside your love
3 hummer
4 once upon a time
5 wound
6 snail
7 luna
8 cupid de locke
9 for martha
10 muzzle
11 galapagos
12 crush
13 set the ray to jerry
14 try, try, try
15 soot and stars
16 disarm
17 shame
18 frail and bedazzled
19 here is no why
20 the last song
21 farewell & goodnight
22 cherub rock
23 behold! the night mare
24 tristessa
25 silverfuck
26 winterlong
27 porcelina of the vast oceans
28 waiting
29 thirty-three
30 blissed & gone
31 blue skies bring tears
32 here's to the atom bomb (judas 0 version)
33 raindrops + sunshowers

honorable mentions: beautiful/x.y.u./untitled/to sheila/the imploding voice/geek u.s.a./1979/drown/pug/tear/eye/rhinocerous/mayonaise/la dolly vita/a song for a son/in the arms of sleep/stumbleine/starla/tonight, tonight/age of innocence/cottonwood symphony/i of the mourning

[LostSoul]

Interesting list. Not in a bad way, either.

snail33, on 08 February 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

a song for a son/cottonwood symphony/

What! Teargarden era songs as honorable mentions! I am stunned. :lol:/>

[Dusty]

I'm not gonna do thirty, but I will run a few off the top of my head:

Rocket (I am ASTONISHED nobody has mentioned this one yet. It repeats almost no part, but it sounds like a complete song and has the perfect build)
1979 (Nothing about this osng could be different. "Shake these zipper blues" might be Billy's best lyric ever)
Behold! The Nightmare
For Martha
Blank Page
To Shiela
That's The Way (I've been told on a number of occasions that this is one of his "best written" songs from a music theory perspective)
Disarm
A Song For A Son
Gossamer
Oceania (if I had a mastered soundboard of this song...I already feel that strongly about it. Like Rocket, it's non-repeating)
Tonight, Tonight
Stumbleine
The Everlasting Gaze
Stand Inside Your Love
Home
Let Me Give The World To You
Snail
Geek USA (On the strength on the drumming if nothing else)
Once Upon A Time
Stellar
Thirty Three
The Rose March
99 Floors

If I were making someone a Pumpkins Mix Tape trying to prove that they were serious, extremely talented musicians, those would be the songs (more or less). If we throw in "Billy Corgan Life Work", I would add the song Mary Star of the Sea.

[snail33]

Dusty, on 09 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I'm not gonna do thirty, but I will run a few off the top of my head:

Rocket (I am ASTONISHED nobody has mentioned this one yet. It repeats almost no part, but it sounds like a complete song and has the perfect build)

one of the weaker songs in the entire catalog.

That's The Way (I've been told on a number of occasions that this is one of his "best written" songs from a music theory perspective)

total bullshit. you were told this by a hack.

[crepe]

1. 1979
Home
Perfect
Blank page
For Martha
Ruby
Soma
Mayonaise
Drown
10. Ava Adore
Beautiful
Pennies
Behold! the nightmare
By Starlight
Geek USA
Here is No Why
Atom Bomb
Hummer
If there is a god
20. Last Song
Let me give the world to you
Marquis in spades
Wound
With Every Light
Vanity
Try x3
Speed Kills
Slow Dawn
This Time
Sacred & Profane

[Dusty]

@snail OMG YOU'RE SO RIGHT. I SHOULD HAVE LISTED THRU THE EYES OF RUBYx30 AND GISHx10000000000000000000000000 THE NINTIES WILL NEVER DIE WOOOHOOOO

Multiple people have said it. Not a. People who have gone to college studying music. But as "objective" as I tried to make my little list, there is a matter of opinion involved. I believe Billy has said a few times that some of the best songs ever written are "dumb" songs, which I would assume means that they just get the listener off. So meh. Maybe it's fruitless to even attempt a list like this. But I tried to list songs that were technically interesting, or more "complex" in some way. I think that neither of those songs rely on big dynamic changes, which I see as a more rudimentary technique. Non-repeating chorus's are present in each. The lyrics to Rocket are meaningful and interesting, though I would say a good portion of Billy's lyrics are. Rocket's sound and structure are certainly unique, in both the Pumpkins catalouge and in pop music in general. Again, there is a subjective element here, so we can agree to disagree.

[Baltimore08]

Glynis will always be my favorite and their best in my opinion. Or thirty-three.

[Inertia]

LostSoul, on 08 February 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Any combination of the 3. Those with the perfect balance. Or even if just one or two of those elements are so masterfully performed that the other doesn't even matter, it is just that good. :p/>

So I basically add up all the elements of a particular song and give it a final grade? Doesn't seem any different compared to other similar thread topics. :scatch:/>
Can you explain the rules in more detail if possible please? I'm pretty sure the idea is to exclude any external factors such as "the song is overplayed too much", or "the song is special because it got me into The Smashing Pumpkins".

[snail33]

Dusty, on 09 February 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

@snail OMG YOU'RE SO RIGHT. I SHOULD HAVE LISTED THRU THE EYES OF RUBYx30 AND GISHx10000000000000000000000000 THE NINTIES WILL NEVER DIE WOOOHOOOO

Multiple people have said it. Not a. People who have gone to college studying music. But as "objective" as I tried to make my little list, there is a matter of opinion involved. I believe Billy has said a few times that some of the best songs ever written are "dumb" songs, which I would assume means that they just get the listener off. So meh. Maybe it's fruitless to even attempt a list like this. But I tried to list songs that were technically interesting, or more "complex" in some way. I think that neither of those songs rely on big dynamic changes, which I see as a more rudimentary technique. Non-repeating chorus's are present in each. The lyrics to Rocket are meaningful and interesting, though I would say a good portion of Billy's lyrics are. Rocket's sound and structure are certainly unique, in both the Pumpkins catalouge and in pop music in general. Again, there is a subjective element here, so we can agree to disagree.

i'm not that into gish. you're confused. that's the way is not an example of a dumb, simple song that transcends that and becomes a gem. it's a half-assed song. IN MY OPINION, which is based on logic.

[LostSoul]

Inertia, on 10 February 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

So I basically add up all the elements of a particular song and give it a final grade? Doesn't seem any different compared to other similar thread topics. :scatch:/>
Can you explain the rules in more detail if possible please? I'm pretty sure the idea is to exclude any external factors such as "the song is overplayed too much", or "the song is special because it got me into The Smashing Pumpkins".

Essentially, the list I gave is not representative of my very own favorite songs. Many of them are indeed in there, but it differs slightly. What I meant (and should have stated in the first place) was which songs would you say showcase the Pumpkins at their best? The songs that overflow with their essence. Sort of how I enjoy Porcelina, and it is by and far one of their best, most well-structured songs. And yet, it isn't my personal favorite. It doesn't have to be. Make better sense?

[snail33]

LostSoul, on 10 February 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Essentially, the list I gave is not representative of my very own favorite songs. Many of them are indeed in there, but it differs slightly. What I meant (and should have stated in the first place) was which songs would you say showcase the Pumpkins at their best? The songs that overflow with their essence. Sort of how I enjoy Porcelina, and it is by and far one of their best, most well-structured songs. And yet, it isn't my personal favorite. It doesn't have to be. Make better sense?

no, it makes no sense at all. if you think it is "by and far one of their best" songs (a tortured phrase to say the least), then it should be a favorite of yours.

i LOVE cupid de locke. it's not a paragon of meticulous, beatle-esque songcraft, it wouldn't make as good a single as, say, today...and, yet, i think it is one of their very best songs, and i think it's "better" than today, regardless of how "technically" accomplished one is versus the other.

mysterious ways by u2 makes a much better radio song than until the end of the world. losing my religion is a better album-promoter than texarkana. lovesong is a much more logical single than closedown. yet i like the latters much more than the formers, and i think they're better songs.

[LostSoul]

You kinda just proved my point, though. :lol:/>

There are songs that I enjoy more than others personally, and then there are songs that I would burn to a CD to give a listener a 'definitive gathering' of Pumpkins material, that truly reflects who they are. For example, my top three favorite songs are Zero, I of the Mourning & Crestfallen. Would you put those on a playlist of the Pumpkins' most self-reflecting, best material? Half the people I introduce to those songs don't get them. Yet, when I put on Ruby or Mayonaise, they are awestruck. See what I mean? Maybe it doesn't make sense, but oh well. I've explained my idea. If you disagree or fail to find logic within it, then just kindly play along with it. :p/>

This post has been edited by LostSoul: 10 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

[Deleted User Account]

That's the Way is a REALLY good song. One of their best, absolutely. Such a smart song. Snail fail. FRRT. (anyone watch Delocated?)

I can't make a list because it would be too time consuming and I don't feel like it. 'That's the way' would be on it, though. I think I'd use Spangled as my TGBK pick.

[LostSoul]

Why don't you start a worldwide That's The Way appreciation campaign? :lol:/>

You and that song, man...too funny.

All in all, it is one of the better Zeitgeist songs. I very much enjoy the vibe of the song, and the solo especially. That solo is ethereal in an album loaded with cheesy, obnoxious faux-Queen ones.

[Dusty]

I'm with Eric on this one. That's The Way is excellent. Spangled is also my runner up from TbK.

Snail, saying That's The Way is bad because it's half assed (i.e., bad) is not an example of a logical argument.

[oryann]

ArticulateEric, on 10 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

That's the Way is a REALLY good song. One of their best, absolutely. Such a smart song. Snail fail. FRRT. (anyone watch Delocated?)

I can't make a list because it would be too time consuming and I don't feel like it. 'That's the way' would be on it, though. I think I'd use Spangled as my TGBK pick.

I have to agree with this. A year ago I would've been like "lol That's the Way sucks" but I've really grown to appreciate it. The lyrics and chord changes really are genius. I still get chills when he says "oh how I believe in you." Such a good song.

I'm not too into the production, and yes it does have the typical Zeitgeist loud-as-hell vocals, but this song definitely has SP magic.

[snail33]

oryann, on 11 February 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

I have to agree with this. A year ago I would've been like "lol That's the Way sucks" but I've really grown to appreciate it. The lyrics and chord changes really are genius. I still get chills when he says "oh how I believe in you." Such a good song.

I'm not too into the production, and yes it does have the typical Zeitgeist loud-as-hell vocals, but this song definitely has SP magic.

wow. then why is it that i am old school fan who gets the magic of all the magical songs (ruby, siyl, galapagos, martha, hummer, etc) and yet i feel nothing when i hear this? and that i'm a fairly accomplished musician and songwriter and don't find the chord changes interesting at all?

LostSoul, on 10 February 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

You kinda just proved my point, though. :lol:/>

There are songs that I enjoy more than others personally, and then there are songs that I would burn to a CD to give a listener a 'definitive gathering' of Pumpkins material, that truly reflects who they are. For example, my top three favorite songs are Zero, I of the Mourning & Crestfallen. Would you put those on a playlist of the Pumpkins' most self-reflecting, best material? Half the people I introduce to those songs don't get them. Yet, when I put on Ruby or Mayonaise, they are awestruck. See what I mean? Maybe it doesn't make sense, but oh well. I've explained my idea. If you disagree or fail to find logic within it, then just kindly play along with it. :p/>

i know what you are getting at but i think your wording is flawed. just because some songs that wouldn't be your favorites might be more representative or more accessible doesn't make them "better." the BEST songs are the ones you LIKE best.

[Deleted User Account]

snail, it's the way Corgan keeps changing the chords under his melodies that's smart. It's so clever but it never sounds forced; That's The Way is organic in the same way his old school compositions were. Cbag is a great arranger (number #1 complaint with Oceania songs is how choppy they sound, really weird for Bill). That's The Way is one of his best songs ever. It's not as "good" as 1979 is, but it's a better song. Career highlight lost on a really mediocre album. And it kinda sounds shit-ay thanks to the Zeit production.

Tell me why it's a stinker and/or mediocre. I think your song choices are pretty great and I can understand why you'd pick most of them, but I don't get your indifference to That's The Way.

[oryann]

snail33, on 12 February 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

wow. then why is it that i am old school fan who gets the magic of all the magical songs (ruby, siyl, galapagos, martha, hummer, etc) and yet i feel nothing when i hear this?

Because you are a different human being than I.

[snail33]

ArticulateEric, on 12 February 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

snail, it's the way Corgan keeps changing the chords under his melodies that's smart. It's so clever but it never sounds forced; That's The Way is organic in the same way his old school compositions were. Cbag is a great arranger (number #1 complaint with Oceania songs is how choppy they sound, really weird for Bill). That's The Way is one of his best songs ever. It's not as "good" as 1979 is, but it's a better song. Career highlight lost on a really mediocre album. And it kinda sounds shit-ay thanks to the Zeit production.

Tell me why it's a stinker and/or mediocre. I think your song choices are pretty great and I can understand why you'd pick most of them, but I don't get your indifference to That's The Way.

i'm listening to it again right now. i'm not indifferent to it. i hate it. it's like self-parody, much like most of the cure songs on bloodflowers. it's gimmicky. it's boring. the melody isn't gripping or moving, it sounds like a melody that's been used many times by lesser artists. the solo is the exact vocal melody. the lyrics are cheesy. it doesn't sound like a pumpkins song except that billy's singing it and jc's drumming. it would be the weakest song on machina II, and i can't stand machina II. that kind of lazy half-not he sings on you should call on me "beh-beh--eh-eh" is cloying. the lyrics is written in that kind of weirdly arrogant "i'm the shit" voice he's used on and off in the last decade; it was kinda cute in settle down and baby let's rock, but not here. melodically it predicts where he'd go on teargarden, which is also boring as fuck.

i can't give you anything more technical than this. i have no desire to ever hear the song again. i am sure it sounds juvenile to some, but it is clear to me that there was a certain magic to having billy, james, d'arcy and jimmy in the band, because virtually all of the AMAZING music made by bc was made with those other 3 on board. in any other setting, he has not matched 1990-2000.

oryann, on 12 February 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Because you are a different human being than I.

right. but you said "this song DEFINITELY has SP magic." and i say it doesn't. so it's not "definite."

[Deleted User Account]

Fair enough. Thanks for trying.

"in that kind of weirdly arrogant "i'm the shit" voice he's used on and off in the last decade" is proof enough snail needs to stick around for a long time.

[oryann]

snail33, on 13 February 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

right. but you said "this song DEFINITELY has SP magic." and i say it doesn't. so it's not "definite."

just because you don't think it does, does not say "it definitely does not have that SP magic." I think it most certainly does, and I hate (or at least am very indifferent towards) every other song on Zeitgeist.

But yes, fair enough. I see your angle, and forfeit.

[Deleted User Account]

oryann, on 14 February 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

just because you don't think it does, does not say "it definitely does not have that SP magic." I think it most certainly does, and I hate (or at least am very indifferent towards) every other song on Zeitgeist.

But yes, fair enough. I see your angle, and forfeit.

We'll hold the fort for the That's The Way lovers.

[crepe]

@Snail

You dont like slow dawn?




Mayfair shall not see this. haha

[oryann]

ArticulateEric, on 14 February 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

We'll hold the fort for the That's The Way lovers.

:cheers:/>

[snail33]

crepe, on 14 February 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

@Snail

You dont like slow dawn?




Mayfair shall not see this. haha

when did i say that?

[Mayfair]

snail33, on 14 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

when did i say that?

you didn't say it, cause it would be fucking insane to do so.

[LostSoul]

snail33, meet Mayfair. Your road block. :D/>

[snail33]

Mayfair, on 16 February 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

you didn't say it, cause it would be fucking insane to do so.

slow dawn is a pretty cool song...there are at least 5 songs on judas 0 that are better.

[LostSoul]

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!

[frosty]

lol @ mayfair

[Mayfair]

snail33, on 16 February 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

there are at least 5 songs on judas 0 that are better.

whatever, im just here to monitor the slow dawn bashing, of which there was none. carry on.

[crepe]

snail33, on 14 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

when did i say that?

and i can't stand machina II. that kind of lazy half-not he sings on you should call on me "beh-beh--eh-eh" is cloying. the lyrics is written in that kind of weirdly arrogant "i'm the shit" voice he's used on and off in the last decade



there.

[snail33]

crepe, on 18 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

and i can't stand machina II. that kind of lazy half-not he sings on you should call on me "beh-beh--eh-eh" is cloying. the lyrics is written in that kind of weirdly arrogant "i'm the shit" voice he's used on and off in the last decade



there.

saying i can't stand an album means i hate every single song on it?

i can't stand the cure's bloodflowers, yet i think the first track on it ("out of this world") is the best song they have released in 20 years.

i never said i hated "slow dawn", which was the topic.

[crepe]

snail33, on 18 February 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

saying i can't stand an album means i hate every single song on it?

i can't stand the cure's bloodflowers, yet i think the first track on it ("out of this world") is the best song they have released in 20 years.

i never said i hated "slow dawn", which was the topic.

Pretty much.

Or you'd say ''I hate x and x songs on machina II'