[system_failure01]

So I've read in various places that Mellon Collie is a concept album, and I've also read in many places that it fails in its mission as a concept album - concept is vague, some of the songs weren't written for the record/dont suit the flow - For example a couple of the songs are rage and no more, Ode to No One stands out... etc. etc.

So I was wondering if folk here had a better interpretation that I do.

And anyway, isn't Machina I-II a better concept album ? A more accomplished story and the songs were written for the record deliberately.

Should I have made this a 'Whats a better concept album' of MCIS and Machina, or is just discussing it cool

[soniclovenoize]

It's not a concept album in the way that there is a narrative, but just how the songs are organized (the first disc is "daytime music" and the second is "nighttime music").

[Mayfair]

Based loosely on the Vedas, and also loosely on "a day in the life of an American teenager"

[LostSoul]

Yeah...it isn't a conceptual album in the lyrical sense at all. No story to tell. More or less, it is conceptual in the emotions and trials it successfully conveys as a whole. Like what Mayfair said above.^

Also, it takes you to a completely different world when you listen to it. Conceptual, but not completely.

If you want a concept record, look to Machina I & II.

[Matteo]

didn't billy say that he intended it to be about a boy who kills his parents or something?

[soniclovenoize]

Matteo, on 18 December 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

didn't billy say that he intended it to be about a boy who kills his parents or something?

No.

[Fernando]

The songs of Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness are intended to hang together conceptually, with the two halves of the album representing day and night.[8] Despite this, Corgan has rejected the term concept album to describe it, and it was at the time described as more "loose" and "vague" than the band's previous records.[13][1][8] However, Billy Corgan has also said that the album is based on "the human condition of mortal sorrow".[14] Corgan aimed the album's message at people aged 14 to 24 years, hoping "to sum up all the things I felt as a youth but was never able to voice articulately."[1] He summed up by stating, "I'm waving goodbye to me in the rear view mirror, tying a knot around my youth and putting it under the bed."[1]

From Wiki.

[system_failure01]

but isn't every album more or less a flowing body of a certain emotion, also the artwork and sound production help take you toa different place with every album by anyone.

I was more wondering if anyone had a take, or offical but off-the-record info about an actual story to the album, like The Who's Tommy or something.

[soniclovenoize]

system_failure01, on 19 December 2011 - 12:51 PM, said:

but isn't every album more or less a flowing body of a certain emotion, also the artwork and sound production help take you toa different place with every album by anyone.

I was more wondering if anyone had a take, or offical but off-the-record info about an actual story to the album, like The Who's Tommy or something.

No, it wasn't written like that. Tommy was specifically written with a storyline in mind; MCIS was just a collection of songs.

You can call an apple a banana all you want, but it's still gonna be an apple.

[Inertia]

While I don't believe Mellon Collie as a whole has a solid narrative story, I think some songs do connect to each other. Like how Stumbleine references Ruby at the last verse.

[beep beep]

I never really analyzed the Mellon Collie concept other than to think of it as one disc being Day and the other being Night. Thinking of it as an expression of depression is more interesting.

Obviously there are some manic, euphoric songs on there (Cupid de Locke, Beautiful, Tonight Tonight). You have to ask, what role do they serve to the concept? To me, it's almost like you have to experience something (happiness) to miss it.

It could also be an album about bipolar disorder, though. Maybe this guy cracked the Mellon Collie code:

The diversity of the Smashing Pumpkins music in the mind of a BP/SP. by Corenski

Your lover has left you. It was not a mutual break-up. You’re Bipolar. Your favorite band is The Smashing Pumpkins. For the sake of simplification let’s call you a BP/SP, a Bipolar Smashing Pumpkin (fan). What do you do? Nothing consistent. If external stability is what you need to combat the inner turmoil, then you’ve chosen to follow the wrong band. Mainstream music journalists are happy to lump the Pumpkins beneath the umbrella term of “alternative”. Devoted fans understand that the Pumpkins are more difficult, if not impossible, to define using conventional genre labels. Even in their earliest effort, Nothing Ever Changes, it was not simple. They were a Cure-esque, sorta/kinda New Wave, goth-pop-rock group. Since then the entity known as the Smashing Pumpkins has existed in a constant state of flux, much like the mood of a Bipolar person.

Over the years, Psychedelic, Acoustic, Electronica, Heavy Metal, Synth-pop, Industrial, Shoegazer, and simple Pop-Rock, have all been tags attached to the band’s sound. They transcend classifications such as alternative or rock, much like Bipolar people often don’t fit clinical diagnoses such as depressive, or manic. Those suffering from Bipolar disorder can display a wide range of moods within a short time frame. These moods can be described as; sad, energetic, apathetic, lethargic, irrational, angry, charismatic, and unfortunately, reckless. This is precisely why the Pumpkins are a perfect band for a Bipolar person. No matter their mood, there is a song, or an entire album, that jives perfectly in sync with what they are feeling.

To return to the original scenario, a dedicated BP/SP has found themselves unexpectedly single. Their pillow is present to soak up any spontaneous tears spawned by sudden inexplicable suicidal urges, but that’s not enough. Naturally they turn to their favorite band, whose music (due to the diversity it offers), serves as a curative all-purpose fix for any situation. Stumbleine almost lulls them to sleep. A lovely, somberly-sweet melody that makes them lament the loss of their significant other. Yet somehow simultaneously the song makes them feel that the split was for the best. Maybe they’re still riding an adrenalin rush from the climax of Ruby (that come down’s always been rough). Or perhaps that pillow of theirs is simply too soft to resist. For the moment however, Stumbleine makes them believe that it’s ok to be heartbroken sometimes.

Then comes a hard rocking sonic shift, bombarding the subdued, love-sick BP/SP. Feelings of sadness, self loathing, lamentation, and possibly even forgiveness for the hater of their heart, are all but forgotten. X.Y.U. puts them more so in the mood for revenge. An anthem of angst churning disdain for the cause of their hurt, “and into the eyes of the jackal” they scream “the world owes me”. Out of tune lyrics are shrieked between cracks in their voice. They forbid themselves to weep any longer. They are overcome with rage yet at the same time the song is channeling their demons, funneling them out and away. “You don’t need her; you can do better than him.” Empowered, they feel they can conquer the pain of unrequited passion. Mental illness or not, they will solider on, they will… be reminded of how pathetic and empty they are. Beautiful, re-breaks their fragile BP/SP heart with a slide show of their former love’s face. This is but a short, fictitious documentation of what an SP listening experience can be like for a BP/SP. Personally, I have been an avidly obsessed SP fan for nearly 20 years, and a BP/SP for 10 to 13 years. Doctors describe my Bipolar disorder as “severe”, the same word friends use to describe my Pumpkin-fandom. I can only speculate as to what life is like for other BP/SPs. I am however, confident that others exist, and that “BP/SP” isn’t just a term I narcissistically coined to depict myself. Hypothetically thinking, even if I am the only BP/SP, there are still parallels to be drawn between me, and the SP fan base at large. Being a fan of the Pumpkins, and being bipolar are very similar. Sure, one is mental and one is musical, but inconsistency is what links the two. We’re always surprised by what comes next.

Throughout my days, I cannot hope to predict what the next hour will mean to me emotionally. For Pumpkin fans, imagine you’re listening to a new SP album for the first time, or remember back to your first listen of any album from the band’s discography. Just as I have no idea what mood I’ll be in next, SP fans have no idea what tone or style the next track on a new Pumpkins record will bring. The real question is (in terms of mood or music), will we like what’s next? When I enter into a low period, I don’t enjoy being depressed, mania is more fun. Mania can even be mistaken for happiness. Non-BP/SP fans don’t always enjoy every track on an album, or every era of the band’s evolution. In contrast to myself, (hating my lows and loving my highs) the average SP fan seems to embrace the band’s lows, and strongly dislike the band’s highs, i.e. depressing SP music (like Melon Collie) = good. Happy SP music (like Teargarden, or Zwan for that matter) = crap.

In my own experience, my disorder has perhaps made me a super SP fan. The reason for this is simple. You see, when I’m in a particular mood, I am deeply engrossed in that mood. Anything that matches my mind set, I unquestionably fall in love with. This zealous affair does not end when I veer towards another emotion. This has resulted in me developing an overly eclectic taste in music, my CD library hosting artists from nearly every genre. It also means that, I have an unrelenting love and appreciation for everything in the Pumpkins’ catalogue. Out of the hundreds of songs that Billy Corgan has wrote, there is but a hand full that I’m not completely in love with. I have never been taken off guard, nor have I, been skeptical of any new direction in which the band has taken.

I am in no way insinuating that one must be Bipolar to truly cherish the great SP’s full body of work. I am, however, suggesting that it might help. There are varying levels of fandom surrounding the band. Being as versatile as the Smashing Pumpkins are, it only makes sense that the appeal of their music is as far reaching as it is. From passive listener to memorabilia collector, there are no boundaries.

Causal listeners delight in singing along with the radio singles, but have never dabbled in the band’s album offerings. Gen-1 fans resist anything post Judas’ O. “Era-Fans”, are a strange breed, with rigid preferences and specific cutoff dates for how far their fandom runs, ie; the band ended in 1995-97, all else is tripe. “Genre-Fan” are uncommon, but do exist with well crafted mp3 playlists. They indulge in only one style of the Pumpkins. For example, Electronic/Industrial fans who love all Pumpkin songs that boarder those genres. It begins with The End is the Beginning is the End, and Eye. Then Adore’s electronic gems, any remixes available, and even select tracks from The Future Embrace. I’ve been told For God and Country is iffy territory. There is also the acoustic crowd. Folk followers who reject the electric. University taught me that there is an abundance of this hippie subculture.

The final sub-category of SP fans are the Ghost Children, those who must hear every new song released. Conservative estimates predict that the ranks of these hardest of hard-core fans have dwindled to as little as 10,000 in recent years. The band was building its fan base until around ‘95 or ‘96 when their legions of listeners peaked. Since then, it seems that every year has seen more of decline. I refuse to entertain the notion that this is because newer SP music is lacking in quality when compared to the older material. I believe Billy Corgan’s song writing abilities have never waned. The only thing that has changed over the years is the style of the music.

To be stagnant, is to be boring, doomed to be trapped in an endless cycle of reinventing the same album. Alas, the masses are ultimately uncomfortable with change. People get set in their ways. Their tastes and interests narrow, eventually plateauing so that they only like one genre or one era of music, and so brings me to my thesis; living with Bipolar disorder means that I have an infinitesimal amount of consistency in my life, and therefore I have no expectations of consistency for the rest of the world. One positive aspect about my disorder (perhaps the only positive thing about it), is that it has given me an oddly unique world view. In regards to the Pumpkins, I feel that I am more accepting of change, where as non BP/SP fans are not. This is partly the reason why so many have jumped off the Pumpkin-wagon over the years. The evolving musical style of the band has alienated many fans along the way. The same people also feel downright betrayed by the rotating line up of band members, but that’s an entirely different topic.

My final question is, if the hardliner Pumpkin fans do indeed only number around 10,000 then how many of us could be classified as BP/SP? Honestly though, how many? Keep in mind, we do follow a perpetually experimental Pisces who changes his musical style every other year. There’s also his ever changing mind, fashion, band members, and band names. From The Marked to Backwards Clock Society, we are the few who have held on, and we will never let go. Others have found Mr. Corgan’s antics to be frustrating, and too much bother or drama to follow. The faithful 10,000, and we the BP/SP among them, have always been left entertained by each new metamorphosis and more importantly, we always want more.

As I await the release of Oceania, I am filled with anticipation. No matter what the album sounds like, I will love it. Maybe not immediately, but when the right mood eclipses my mind, I’ll fall in love, and Oceania will help through me something – I have no idea what; every album SP has ever made has enriched my life somehow. Truthfully, Billy Corgan’s music has saved me from myself more than once. Being Bipolar has not destroyed me. The disorder has not consumed me whole, because listening to the Smashing Pumpkins has made me believe that there are pieces of me that are worth holding onto. It’s made me not feel ashamed of my feelings, and that is something I really needed, and continue to need. I am a proud BP/SP! For that, I hope to have the opportunity to thank Billy in person someday.

[Mayfair]

Vedas

[the_farewell_party]

I've always interpreted MCIS as the life and death of someone. He is born, a lot of stuff happens to him. Sad stuff, angry stuff, happy stuff. His life is mostly problem after problem, but then things start looking up and he dies happy and content.

I know that's probably not what Billy had in mind. "It's the day in the life of a teenager" or whatever. But my interpretations cooler.

[Mayfair]

beep beep, on 19 December 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

From The Marked to Backwards Clock Society,

I've been around since Coat of Eyes.


burn.

[ShamanO]

that makes you OLD

[Mayfair]

old as fuck

[ShamanO]

and we all know fuck is pretty damn old.

what an old fucking story!

[beep beep]

have we found the "author" of Beowulf?

[Matteo]

soniclovenoize, on 19 December 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

No.

i could have sworn it was something like that though. i remember listening to an interview of billy in like 1995 on a radio morning show. he had just recently shaved his head i think. he said something like "my original idea for mellon collie was for it to be a rock opera about a boy killing his parents. that rock opera idea never happened."

i KNOW he said something along those lines. i'm sure of it. maybe he was joking, but he still said it.

[ShamanO]

you were old enough to listen to that back in 1995. I thought you were still in highschool

and I also recall something like that being said, perhaps he was joking. He must be a real prankster

[Matteo]

no, i meant the interview was from 1995.

[ShamanO]

oh ok. pretty sure you can pull up interviews to read from 1995.

[Matteo]

ok i found it. it's on my ipod. it's a 1996 kroq interview "breakfast with billy". around 7 minutes a fan asks "i heard mellon collie was originally supposed to be a rock opera. is this true?"

billy replies "originally in my rambling dreaming i thought i'd make it more conceptual but, when i actually started getting into writing the songs i realized i couldn't really write the song where the boy actually hatches his parents to death with an axe. so i just skipped over that part and wrote the songs and put them together the way they seemed to fit."

so HA guys.

[ShamanO]

what a concept :eyebrow:/>

[themadcaplaughs]

Quote

billy replies "originally in my rambling dreaming i thought i'd make it more conceptual but, when i actually started getting into writing the songs i realized i couldn't really write the song where the boy actually hatches his parents to death with an axe. so i just skipped over that part and wrote the songs and put them together the way they seemed to fit."

Reminds me of what Billy said in the audio commentary for the "Stand Inside Your Love" video. He mentioned how many times his raw ideas are much darker and more sinister than what the completed product is.

[Matteo]

yeah. i think all of his raw ideas are better than everything that actually came out. like the original idea for the tonight tonight video, for instance. band playing on a surreal stage and the camera goes into the audience members' eyes and shows their vision of the song. fucking badass idea.

[snail33]

Matteo, on 23 December 2011 - 09:49 AM, said:

ok i found it. it's on my ipod. it's a 1996 kroq interview "breakfast with billy". around 7 minutes a fan asks "i heard mellon collie was originally supposed to be a rock opera. is this true?"

billy replies "originally in my rambling dreaming i thought i'd make it more conceptual but, when i actually started getting into writing the songs i realized i couldn't really write the song where the boy actually hatches his parents to death with an axe. so i just skipped over that part and wrote the songs and put them together the way they seemed to fit."

so HA guys.

"hatchets."

[Songwriter]

Thanks for sharing all that you said, Beep Beep! :)/> I am the same way.

[LostSoul]

snail33, on 25 December 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

"hatchets."

And this is why no one likes you.

[MrMasala]

Why is it important to know if its a concept album or not? Does it change anything? It´s a great record and so is Machina.

[manuglass]

Can I argue that Machina is not a concept album? I think it is pretty clear that it was meant to be a concept album, but I think they did not go for it in the end. I remember Billy saying something about this, but I don't know when/where. The thing is, if you listened to Machina without knowing the whole Glass thing, would you see an underlying concept?