[awsmsc]

So there's gonna be a new double album of the machinas that will be intended to be a genuine "double album" and the songs are gonna get remixed. So my question is: what you like it to have/be like?

Here's my list:

*That the tracks be resequenced, because it wouldn't really feel like a double album if they stuck with the existing track order (I think I read this is already planned, but I'm not sure)
*That the wall-of-sound fuzzyness of Machina 1 get tuned down to provide us with a "cleaner" sound and that the Machina 2 songs get a "more produced" sound, essentially putting the two production styles closer together (if the songs don't all have a similar production style, it isn't really going to sound like an actual double album)
*Some new stuff (since they're already remixing the songs, they might as well play with the songs outside of just changing the production. I guess going as far as re-doing vocals/instrument playing would be a little sacrilegious, but I wouldn't mind)

If really looking forward to some of the Machina 2 songs getting a more produced sound, especially Go and Home. Right now they basically sound like demos, which, I guess they are, basically.

[CoolAsIceCream]

i have no specific requests.

i don't really believe there was another "originally intended track order", at least not one definite one, but i don't care either way. if they want to use this story in order sell this reissue, that's fine. (i'm not buying the story, but i'm buying the reissue anyway.)

[standing]

I'm liking rottingapples' breakdown more and more as we continue to discuss this thing.

[_Revolution_Blues]

in one of the most recent threads on here that has a link to an interview with billy, he says that it WILL be resequenced to how he intended it to be. It'll be interesting to see how it all sounds in a different order but i'm so used to the different sounds and sequence on each it'll be weird, for me anyway.

Good point on the fuzziness aspect,some songs are way too loud. Remastered versions of vanity, slow dawn and speed kills better be on there....

[whywontyoulisten]

Remix, remaster, do not re-record.

[chrisothoulos]

I would think we are all most excited about this reissue. I know I am

[soniclovenoize]

awsmsc, on 26 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

So there's gonna be a new double album of the machinas that will be intended to be a genuine "double album" and the songs are gonna get remixed. So my question is: what you like it to have/be like?

Here's my list:

*That the tracks be resequenced, because it wouldn't really feel like a double album if they stuck with the existing track order (I think I read this is already planned, but I'm not sure)
*That the wall-of-sound fuzzyness of Machina 1 get tuned down to provide us with a "cleaner" sound and that the Machina 2 songs get a "more produced" sound, essentially putting the two production styles closer together (if the songs don't all have a similar production style, it isn't really going to sound like an actual double album)
*Some new stuff (since they're already remixing the songs, they might as well play with the songs outside of just changing the production. I guess going as far as re-doing vocals/instrument playing would be a little sacrilegious, but I wouldn't mind)

If really looking forward to some of the Machina 2 songs getting a more produced sound, especially Go and Home. Right now they basically sound like demos, which, I guess they are, basically.

The only thing I'd like to see is what Billy had originally intended. Which is pretty much none of what you just posted.

[Drevpile]

whywontyoulisten, on 27 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Remix, remaster, do not re-record.

.

[awsmsc]

_Revolution_Blues, on 27 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

speed kills

Ah, yes, that's another one that's gonna be great with normal production.

[snail33]

CoolAsIceCream, on 26 April 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

i have no specific requests.

i don't really believe there was another "originally intended track order", at least not one definite one, but i don't care either way. if they want to use this story in order sell this reissue, that's fine. (i'm not buying the story, but i'm buying the reissue anyway.)

but everything that's been said for more than 10 years has pointed directly to there being another "originally intended track order." why would you doubt it?

[soniclovenoize]

Yeah, I'm sure there was at one point a proposed track order... Our Machina Map that Corgan posted was clearly from early on in the sessions, as indicated by the lack of some songs, and the includion of songs that were eventually merged into others. As I and others have said elsewhere, it's actually pretty easy to figure out a trackorder if you sit with that map, the lyrics, and the little treatment that Corgan wrote of the story. At least I'd say we all agree to 75% of what songs would go where at least. But I want to know it from the horse's mouth.

Also, he's said that different versions would have been used on the actual concept album, ones that were not used on the final Machina I and II album, so that it would flow better, etc. They recorded many many versions of all the songs, so it's completely plausible. Maybe there's a cybermetal version of If There IS A God and an acoustic version of Cash Car Star? :lol:/>

[RottingApples]

standing, on 27 April 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm liking rottingapples' breakdown more and more as we continue to discuss this thing.

Thank you, sir. Again, I think having a Machina 1 deluxe, Machina 2 deluxe, and a 2013 Double Machina would be the best way to go. The purists will retain the originals (in newly mastered form with bonus tracks) and those fans that want a new version of the Machinas as Corgan originally intended would get what they want as well. I don't see how 3 significantly different releases would be a problem.

[awsmsc]

4 discs eh? Or, wait, would we have bonus discs, too? 6 discs?

[Brundisium]

I won't complain about a single thing else they do so long as they give us a decent recording of WHITE SPYDER. Such a waste of a good song via crappy recording on that one. I'm even willing to bet it could've been a successful single.

[Chad Channing]

I would MUCH prefer that Machina I gets mixed to sound like Machina II.

[snail33]

Chad Channing, on 27 April 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I would MUCH prefer that Machina I gets mixed to sound like Machina II.

why?

[locusceruleus]

awsmsc, on 26 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

*That the wall-of-sound fuzzyness of Machina 1 get tuned down to provide us with a "cleaner" sound and that the Machina 2 songs get a "more produced" sound, essentially putting the two production styles closer together (if the songs don't all have a similar production style, it isn't really going to sound like an actual double album)

If Billy fucks with Machina 1's signature sound, I for one won't be impressed.

[V_____]

I was about to go mess around and come up with a hypothetical tracklist for the two but you know what...I have no fucking idea.

I do feel like it will probably till start with Everlasting Gaze and end with Age of Innocence, though.

[Chad Channing]

snail33, on 27 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

why?

Because Machina I is loudness wars faux cybermetal shit.

[snail33]

Chad Channing, on 28 April 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Because Machina I is loudness wars faux cybermetal shit.

stand inside your love doesn't sound good to you? try try try? wound? this time?

real love and if there is a god and go and slow dawn sound good?

machina 2 sounds like it was recorded on a walkman.

[Deleted User Account]

snail33, on 28 April 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

stand inside your love doesn't sound good to you? try try try? wound? this time?

real love and if there is a god and go and slow dawn sound good?

machina 2 sounds like it was recorded on a walkman.

I love the way Machina 2 sounds.

[snail33]

RottingApples, on 27 April 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Thank you, sir. Again, I think having a Machina 1 deluxe, Machina 2 deluxe, and a 2013 Double Machina would be the best way to go. The purists will retain the originals (in newly mastered form with bonus tracks) and those fans that want a new version of the Machinas as Corgan originally intended would get what they want as well. I don't see how 3 significantly different releases would be a problem.

i think it would be completely ridiculous. for one thing, the completists--and there are a lot of them, myself included--would want all 3, which would be a bitch financially...for another, the whole point of finally putting out the full, original machina (and i am speaking for billy here, but i can only imagine) is to have his vision heard in its proper sequence and context. so it would kind of undermine the significance of that event to have the two disjoint versions come out AGAIN, in "deluxe" fashion, prior to the full monty. it would seem to serve only to reinforce the previous separations in the minds of all but the most hardcore fans. third, in my ears, machina 2 never felt like an album anyway--rather, it sounds very much like a bunch of songs that were supposed to have some other context and were forced into an ill-fitting container. accordingly, i NEVER listen to it, and can't imagine many SP fans do. machina 1, irrespective of how it is going to fit together with 2, DOES hold its own as a standalone record. surely this is owing to bc knowing he could only put one album out and thus picking the best songs from the bunch (is there anything on 2 that's better than ANYTHING on 1? barely if at all, i would argue) and sequencing them in the most linear way he could.

ArticulateEric, on 28 April 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I love the way Machina 2 sounds.

i can't fathom how that could be.

V_____, on 28 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

I was about to go mess around and come up with a hypothetical tracklist for the two but you know what...I have no fucking idea.

I do feel like it will probably till start with Everlasting Gaze and end with Age of Innocence, though.

maybe on the former, almost def. not on the latter.

[ShamanO]

I agree with ArticulateEric I love the way Machina II sounds, but we don't really know what it would sound like if it was supposed to be done differently, which might be something we all end up liking. I do want to hear it the way it was meant to be though, song order and sound.

[Chad Channing]

Machina II is perfect because it's raw and beautiful at the same time. It's lo-fi bliss. Machina I sounds like glossy, overproduced, hollow computer music

[Deleted User Account]

Machina 2 (tracks 1-8 mostly) is the perfect encapsulation of Mellon Collie thru to Machina 1 Pumpkins AND it sounds like an old Ride record playing in a car radio... what's not to love?

I also think years of ear damage playing in bands and loving Guided By Voices makes the record sound entirely palatable to me.

Really though, no other Pumpkins album holds up as well as tracks 1 through 8 on Machina 2. Lunkheaded rockers that are stupid fun, beautiful heartache, shoegaze, great vocals and it sounds like a band playing as opposed to meticulously crafted- though it's both.

[WayneArnold]

snail33, on 28 April 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

is there anything on 2 that's better than ANYTHING on 1?

Weird, you must have that pressing of Machina that doesn't have "Heavy Metal Machine", "The Imploding Voice", "The Crying Tree Of Mercury", "With Every Light", and "Blue Skies Bring Tears".

[Deleted User Account]

WayneArnold, on 28 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Weird, you must have that pressing of Machina that doesn't have "Heavy Metal Machine", "The Imploding Voice", "The Crying Tree Of Mercury", "With Every Light", and "Blue Skies Bring Tears".

Hmm, I love all of those songs. The weak links on Machina 1 are Sacred and Profane and (I know this will ruffle feathers) This Time.

[Drevpile]

Could be awesome. Could be shit. I don't care too much. Really love both records individually and as companion pieces [Machina as a whole as it has always been] as they stand. And as I don't believe the scope of the re-issue project extends making previous iterations unavailable, a la George with Star Wars, it don't make any difference in that regard...

Also, the Crying Tree of Mercury is the worst song the Pumpkins have ever made. Baring anything under the guise of Teargarden.

ArticulateEric, on 28 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

This Time.

BAN

This post has been edited by Drevpile: 28 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

[WayneArnold]

ArticulateEric, on 28 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hmm, I love all of those songs. The weak links on Machina 1 are Sacred and Profane and (I know this will ruffle feathers) This Time.

I don't think those are particularly great songs either. I like "This Time" a lot, could do without Sacred and Profane. I don't think the issue with Machina is that it should have been a double album, or two separate albums. It should have been one album comprised of the best tracks from both Machinas- 11 or 12 songs. That's it.

[Deleted User Account]

Why do people (on a whole) love This Time but not Imploding?

[astralweeks]

WayneArnold, on 28 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Weird, you must have that pressing of Machina that doesn't have "Heavy Metal Machine", "The Imploding Voice", "The Crying Tree Of Mercury", "With Every Light", and "Blue Skies Bring Tears".

WEL is amazing in my opinion, and one of the best song he's written. the others you mentioned range from fair to unlistenable..

I definatley think the album would have been improved with Vanity, LMGTWTY, In My Body, and a bunch of others taking their place

[Drevpile]

I like both AEric - Though, don't particularly like the mix of Imploding Voice on the record... I think more people liked it a bit more when it was in original Virex form though.

This post has been edited by Drevpile: 28 April 2012 - 01:09 PM

[WayneArnold]

To be clear, I like some of the songs I listed. I can still recognize there's better songs on Machina 2 though...

[snail33]

ArticulateEric, on 28 April 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Machina 2 (tracks 1-8 mostly) is the perfect encapsulation of Mellon Collie thru to Machina 1 Pumpkins AND it sounds like an old Ride record playing in a car radio... what's not to love?

I also think years of ear damage playing in bands and loving Guided By Voices makes the record sound entirely palatable to me.

Really though, no other Pumpkins album holds up as well as tracks 1 through 8 on Machina 2. Lunkheaded rockers that are stupid fun, beautiful heartache, shoegaze, great vocals and it sounds like a band playing as opposed to meticulously crafted- though it's both.

you're insane, guided by voices sucks, the pumpkins haven't done 1/100 the "shoegaze" many of you seem to feel they have, nothing on machina 2 sounds anything like ride, and it's EASILY their weakest record, if it even is one.

did i mention you're insane?

WayneArnold, on 28 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Weird, you must have that pressing of Machina that doesn't have "Heavy Metal Machine", "The Imploding Voice", "The Crying Tree Of Mercury", "With Every Light", and "Blue Skies Bring Tears".

imploding voice and bsbt are terrific songs, with every light a perfectly lovely one, and hmm acceptable in the context...mercury i could really live without. the songs on machina 2 are boring, undercooked or both.

ArticulateEric, on 28 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hmm, I love all of those songs. The weak links on Machina 1 are Sacred and Profane and (I know this will ruffle feathers) This Time.

this time is beautiful and essential.

WayneArnold, on 28 April 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

To be clear, I like some of the songs I listed. I can still recognize there's better songs on Machina 2 though...

i can't, because there aren't.

[astralweeks]

snail33, on 28 April 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

guided by voices sucks

great band...

and they used to embarrass Billy Corgan on the basketball court during the Lollapalooza 94 tour

[nickpancake]

Man I love every song on Machina even crying tree and heavy metal machine. I wouldn't want any of them to be left off but I know I realize I am in the minority. . totally my favorite album by them and is the easiest album for me to hear all the way through.

Machina II feels really incomplete and lacking to me. . but there are some great songs and some happen to be my favorites by the pumpkins.

I wonder if Billy will use the Machina II version of Saturnine or the Judas O version. I thought it was an Adore era song as well so I wonder how he makes it fit in with the Machina story.

[WayneArnold]

snail33, on 28 April 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

i can't, because there aren't.

It's just obvious you haven't spent enough (or any) time with Machina 2 then. And anyone who calls "The Imploding Voice" terrific can't be taken seriously. Plain and simple. Terrific. :rofl:/>

[alan]

i think on balance machina I is stronger than machina II.

the two sticking points seem to be the sound quality/production and strength of the songs.

i for one love the plastic-y synthetic sound on machina I, i feel like it's part of the story. that drenched kind of overdrive, reminiscent of shoegaze music. it's very evocative and lends the album an overall theme that's not all that obvious in the lyrics. the sound quality on machina II is it's own thing.. nice for people who appreciate that not every album can be polished and engineered, and that it can be cool to have lo-fi versions of songs that are fairly genuine. not at all nice for people who can't appreciate such things.

strength of the songs? machina I is a very strong package, a personal bias (and i know it's a bias) is that i love machina including the so-called weaker tracks (HMM, sacred and profane (top five SP), crying tree of mercury etc). machina II has some weaker tracks like the HMM version. that said, slow dawn - phenomenal song. equal to the best of the pumpkins. and there are loads of other quality songs on II, i love in my body, it's one of my most listened to pumpkins songs (probably most listened to, after eye). home and saturnine are good too.

[standing]

drev, why don't you like crying tree!?

[the_farewell_party]

I don't really have specific requests, either. Just good sound, good album artwork, and bonus music. Maybe sticking on Disco King or the acoustic demos onto the bonus one, plus some stuff that's not already floating on the web. I'm guessing the Machina II EPs will make up a large portion of the bonus material.

The "intended track listing" would be cool. I'm guessing it looks something like the "whiteboard of Machina lore".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Machina_chart.jpg

standing, on 28 April 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

drev, why don't you like crying tree!?

I love those sort of dense gothic sombre songs on Machina, like Crying Tree and Blue Skies Bring Tears (only the quiet version, the "heavy" version doesn't do anything for me). I love that short, simple distorted solo in Crying Tree, as well. It's like "doot-doot-doot-doot doooo--BWARMPH. Dunnadun, dunna".

[Parksey]

breaking news: snail dislikes lo-fi band/albums

[standing]

the_farewell_party, on 28 April 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I don't really have specific requests, either. Just good sound, good album artwork, and bonus music. Maybe sticking on Disco King or the acoustic demos onto the bonus one, plus some stuff that's not already floating on the web. I'm guessing the Machina II EPs will make up a large portion of the bonus material.

The "intended track listing" would be cool. I'm guessing it looks something like the "whiteboard of Machina lore".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Machina_chart.jpg



I love those sort of dense gothic sombre songs on Machina, like Crying Tree and Blue Skies Bring Tears (only the quiet version, the "heavy" version doesn't do anything for me). I love that short, simple distorted solo in Crying Tree, as well. It's like "doot-doot-doot-doot doooo--BWARMPH. Dunnadun, dunna".

dude the comic reading has made you a master of sound effects. thats great!

[snail33]

WayneArnold, on 28 April 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

It's just obvious you haven't spent enough (or any) time with Machina 2 then. And anyone who calls "The Imploding Voice" terrific can't be taken seriously. Plain and simple. Terrific. :rofl:/>

t.i.v. is a kickass, catchy as fuck, unique song. love the melody, the ridiculous production, the warbly keys, the drum performance, etc. an unsung gem.

i cannot even listen to machina 2. it's totally offputting to me. i think real love is cool and go is quite lovely, and pretty much everything else is anywhere from blah to ugh.

that said, every time i see someone here describe one of its tracks as being "amazing" or their "favorite SP song ever", i go back and try again, and i haven't been surprised once. not by home, or in my body, or dross, or vanity, or lmgtwty, or white spyder. ever. this is not a kneejerk bias against the album at all. i just mentioned the other day, for example, that all the tonight tonight b-sides--which are fairly beloved by the sp faithful here--leave me cold as well. but whenever someone here swoons over the incredibleness of rotten apples or jupiter or medellia, i give 'em another spin...and i am always reminded of how dull i think they are.

point? i love this band, and i don't just dismiss things without giving them a chance.

alan, on 28 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

i think on balance machina I is stronger than machina II.

the two sticking points seem to be the sound quality/production and strength of the songs.

i for one love the plastic-y synthetic sound on machina I, i feel like it's part of the story. that drenched kind of overdrive, reminiscent of shoegaze music. it's very evocative and lends the album an overall theme that's not all that obvious in the lyrics. the sound quality on machina II is it's own thing.. nice for people who appreciate that not every album can be polished and engineered, and that it can be cool to have lo-fi versions of songs that are fairly genuine. not at all nice for people who can't appreciate such things.

strength of the songs? machina I is a very strong package, a personal bias (and i know it's a bias) is that i love machina including the so-called weaker tracks (HMM, sacred and profane (top five SP), crying tree of mercury etc). machina II has some weaker tracks like the HMM version. that said, slow dawn - phenomenal song. equal to the best of the pumpkins. and there are loads of other quality songs on II, i love in my body, it's one of my most listened to pumpkins songs (probably most listened to, after eye). home and saturnine are good too.

again, with the shoegaze shit.

name one shoegaze album that sounds anything like machina, in terms of production or tone.

i think maybe some of you fans who weren't really around when shoegaze had its moment read about it later on via billy and latched onto how cool it sounded, without really knowing what it actually is. machina sounds like an overdriven, atmospheric rock record. there are some adjectives you could apply to machina AND to shoegaze music, but the specificity of those buzzwords is way different from one thing to the other. like i could use the word "dreamy" to describe, say, both the deftones and the sundays...but those bands sound nothing alike whatsoever.

[nickpancake]

I never would have guessed that the pumpkins had shoegaze influences just by listening to them. And I understand Billy is a big My Bloody Valentine fan yet I still wouldn't have made a connection with their sound and with the sound on the pumpkin albums. However I think Machina does have certain elements of it in some songs and possibly more so than on their other albums. I certainly wouldn't call it a shoegaze album. I can hear a more Slowdive kind of textures to some of the guitars on Machina.

But I do really like the production of Machina 1. I know it is a bit squashed in terms of mastering but the textures and feel of the album is so cool to me.
I wonder how they will be able to get Machina 1 and II to blend when they are remixed.