[AlienCloak]

(Assuming BC follows up on what he said about merging the two albums together)

We'll have Machina 1 and 2 in one package with different tracklists and a somewhat coherent story. Does that make Machina 2 (the album) obsolete? Because when you release both albums together, it would be considered the Machina "saga" altogether and not two separate albums. So the album releases will go like this:

-Gish 1
-Siamese Dream 2
-Mellon Collie 3
-Adore 4
-Machina 5
-Zeitgeist 6
etc

I guess it depends on what we consider canon.

[awsmsc]

There's no news about a Zeitgeist reissue.

Also, I'm pretty sure there will be a TAFH one, too.

[ShamanO]

Pisces is not in that list...it's an album in my opinion.

[AlienCloak]

I'm talking about Machina, not Z, TAFH or PI.

[RottingApples]

Does it really matter? Why is everyone on this board so obsessive compulsive. Just listen to the music. Album/ non-album/ b-sides..., who cares as long as we're able to listen to it. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' anything.

[ShamanO]

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'm talking about Machina, not Z, TAFH or PI.

then you should have left out all the other albums and addressed it as a possibility of Machina I and II being combined and only counting as 1 album and not listed the others :p/>
however someone else would then have decided to make the list of albums

RottingApples, on 16 December 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Does it really matter? Why is everyone on this board so obsessive compulsive. Just listen to the music. Album/ non-album/ b-sides..., who cares as long as we're able to listen to it. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' anything.

it's a forum and we post all sorts of things because well...WE CAN!

[awsmsc]

Ah yes, the PI reissue is next. I'm pretty sure MCIS and TAFH are gonna come out at the same time, too.

[AlienCloak]

RottingApples, on 16 December 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Just listen to the music.

Maybe that's what you should be doing instead of replying to posts.

ShamanO, on 16 December 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

then you should have left out all the other albums and addressed it as a possibility of Machina I and II being combined and only counting as 1 album and not listed the others :p/>

The reason I listed the others was to show the release of all the albums and what number they are. Gish is #1... etc.

Because as it stands now, Machina 2 is album 6 and Zeitgeist is album 7. But if Machina 1 and 2 are merged, then Machina 2 doesn't exist anymore and Zeitgeist becomes 6.

[RottingApples]

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

Maybe that's what you should be doing instead of replying to posts.

Who says I'm not doing both? :lick:/>

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

Machina 2 doesn't exist anymore and Zeitgeist becomes 6.

Who says it won't exist anymore? My separate copies of each aren't going to suddenly disappear in 2013. What's coming out is an ALTERNATE version of Machina. In the eyes of the big BC, it may be the "definitive" version, but Machina 1 and 2 have existed as we currently have them for 11 years now and will continue to after the reissue campaign is long over.

[snail33]

if it's the definitive version in the eyes of the one person on Earth who wrote and conceived the whole thing, then it's the definitive version.

[LostSoul]

:rofl:/>

One of the only legitimate things I've seen you post, but somehow I find it hilariously stated.

I agree with you, as well as Apples. I personally will see this new version as 'definitive', but there are those who will choose not to. That's up to them to decide. Clearly, the albums are well-known and very much stand alone records in their current states. As he said, they've been around for 11 years now. You will still find Machina I on the shelf with the definitive Machina re-issue, and you will still be capable of downloading MII from The Pumpkins.Net or where have you. In the end, it is up to the listener to decide whether or not to listen to the 'full' album, or as two separate releases altogether.

Personally, I am DYING for a cleaned-up MII.

[the_farewell_party]

I don't think that a reissue can retroactively make an album not an album. I mean, Machina II still happened.

[loserbeach]

the_farewell_party, on 16 December 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't think that a reissue can retroactively make an album not an album. I mean, Machina II still happened.

True. Another thing, I am excited for the two Machinas to be together but it might not compliment each other. Sure the concept is the same but the albums do sound different. Machina II's production is obviously different from Machina I. Unless Billy remixes them the same... :)/>

[frednirv632]

He's talked about remixing them for this release.

[ShamanO]

I think Billy is the one who should decide on official album #'s

hope he gives us a legitimate list so you all can rest easily

[killer_in_me]

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

I guess it depends on what we consider canon.

Haha canon, like some holy text.

In that vein (and I know its not the popular opinion on this board) I view Machina II as more the apocrypha. I mean its not a "studio" album per se, the production on about half the tracks is terrible (mostly because these tracks are demos) and I never listen to the album in its entirety because well, the tracks just aren't arranged logically and don't flow nice.

So Yeah I guess I don't consider it "canon" but its still a nice bunch of songs to listen to. It will be nice when the 2 are arranged together in some logical order.

[V_____]

snail33, on 16 December 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

if it's the definitive version in the eyes of the one person on Earth who wrote and conceived the whole thing, then it's the definitive version.

Not at all. Once you publish something, a book, an album, a film, what have you, it ceases to be yours and speaks for itself. Billy's intent means nothing when it comes to what will be considered the "definitive" version. That is up to each listener alone.

[Parksey]

poor thread

[AlienCloak]

Poor comment.

[dregg419]

i think you bring up a very good question AlienCloak. I had a thread a long time ago about this....i never have considered Machina 2 an album. Its a b sides collection essentially now. just like aeroplane is to mellon collie and pieces is to SD and gish. Now that it is being merged with machina 1 to make a "best of" machina(I'm guessing not all machina 2 songs will make the cut, such as the EP songs like slow dawn and vanity and the alt versions of songs). So i think now more than ever, people will realize that Machina 1 and 2 is album #5 and Zeitgiest #6.

Now the question is which album is Teargarden and which album is oceania? lol

[the_farewell_party]

I don't consider Machina II b-sides of Machina. I think that, just as the name implies, it is a second part. A sequel. I think it's different from Pisces Iscariot, Judas O or The Aeroplane Flies High because those are literally just collections of b-sides straight off the singles or rarities that had been kicking around for a while.

I see Machina and Machina II as sort of like those The Lord of the Rings films that were filmed back-to-back and released in two parts, or maybe Radiohead's Kid A and Amnesiac.

[Hater]

Machina I is like a fish filet, and Machina II is like tartar sauce.

[cleric]

i've waited 4 years for you to talk about the pumpkins, and that's what i'm treated to? :whattodo:/>

[Hater]

:coy:/>

[vsnares]

Hater, on 17 December 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

Machina I is like a fish filet, and Machina II is like tartar sauce.

Machina I is an overcooked, dry piece of tilapia. Machina II is a raw tuna steak.

...I forget where I'm going with this.

[RottingApples]

vsnares, on 18 December 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Machina I is an overcooked, dry piece of tilapia. Machina II is a raw tuna steak.

...I forget where I'm going with this.

Machina II is better than Machina I? (Of which I personally agree. :lick:/> )

This post has been edited by RottingApples: 18 December 2011 - 12:41 PM

[nasalscarecrow]

Whatever the production or order, I can't wait. I love Machina.

[snail33]

V_____, on 17 December 2011 - 03:03 AM, said:

Not at all. Once you publish something, a book, an album, a film, what have you, it ceases to be yours and speaks for itself. Billy's intent means nothing when it comes to what will be considered the "definitive" version. That is up to each listener alone.

as an artist, i disagree. and he only released it separately because virgin stonewalled him.

the_farewell_party, on 17 December 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't consider Machina II b-sides of Machina. I think that, just as the name implies, it is a second part. A sequel. I think it's different from Pisces Iscariot, Judas O or The Aeroplane Flies High because those are literally just collections of b-sides straight off the singles or rarities that had been kicking around for a while.

I see Machina and Machina II as sort of like those The Lord of the Rings films that were filmed back-to-back and released in two parts, or maybe Radiohead's Kid A and Amnesiac.

but you'd be factually incorrect, because they're not two standalone works to be taken sequentially. they were supposed to both be part of a single concept, with the songs all mixed together and interwoven and sequenced in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RUNNING ORDER than is reflected by either of the "machina I" or "machina II" releases tsp were compelled to put out because virgin refused to get behind a 25-track double concept record (because by then the pumpkins were thought to not be a good money grab anymore, and everyone knew machina was not going to be mellon collie).

[crepe]

awsmsc, on 16 December 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

There's no news about a Zeitgeist reissue.

Also, I'm pretty sure there will be a TAFH one, too.

Billy will own everything from WB in 2014.

I'm sure we'll get something. (Batman extra songs, zwan, zietgeist).

[ItsSoPringles]

vsnares, on 18 December 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Machina I is an overcooked, dry piece of tilapia. Machina II is a raw tuna steak.

...I forget where I'm going with this.

i kinda get it, machina 1 had some songs ruined by overproduction, while machina 2 was released while it was still in the beta stage and almost every song wasnt complete

[CoolAsIceCream]

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Does that make Machina 2 (the album) obsolete? Because when you release both albums together, it would be considered the Machina "saga" altogether and not two separate albums.

what exactly are you asking here?

oh wait, i see.

funny how some people are already declaring this machina reissue the definitive version of the album. I FUCKING KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO THAT. I SWEAR. GAH! you're fucking ridiculous. it doesn't even exist yet.

[Hater]

I heard the definitive version will sound a lot like Mountain.

[CoolAsIceCream]

fucking pieces of shit; i hope you all die in a fire and you can take your itunes library with you.

[Hater]

Loud at any volume.

[CoolAsIceCream]

and LOL @ everyone who thinks machina will be reissued in 2013.
are you absolutely unable to learn? are you the kind of creature who will walk into a wall, and then try the same move again until you pass out?

i'd personally be surprised if the machina reissue gets released before 2015.

[frednirv632]

CoolAsIceCream, on 19 December 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

and LOL @ everyone who thinks machina will be reissued in 2013.
are you absolutely unable to learn? are you the kind of creature who will walk into a wall, and then try the same move again until you pass out?

i'd personally be surprised if the machina reissue gets released before 2015.

Not sure how much it affects anything, but he is under a contractual agreement to get these out by 2013. He told us so in Boston.

[Black_Milk]

AlienCloak, on 16 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

(Assuming BC follows up on what he said about merging the two albums together)

We'll have Machina 1 and 2 in one package with different tracklists and a somewhat coherent story. Does that make Machina 2 (the album) obsolete? Because when you release both albums together, it would be considered the Machina "saga" altogether and not two separate albums. So the album releases will go like this:

It'll probably sound very different (something I'm concerned about, as I love Machina II, but Machina I leaves me cold mainly due to the production), I won't be deleting the version of Machina II I have any time soon.

[Lunatic]

frednirv632, on 19 December 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

Not sure how much it affects anything, but he is under a contractual agreement to get these out by 2013. He told us so in Boston.

That was a good meeting. :cheers:/>

[CoolAsIceCream]

hold your horses. i've got the answer. didn't think of this earlier, but i just called billy and simply asked him. he said what the fuck why are you discussing this i decide it's my music NO PRESENT FOR ANYONE!

so yeah, well done, thread starter. thanks a lot.

[ShamanO]

NO GIFT FOR BILLY

[AlienCloak]

CoolAsIceCream, on 19 December 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

so yeah, well done, thread starter. thanks a lot.

You're welcome.

[snail33]

CoolAsIceCream, on 19 December 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

what exactly are you asking here?

oh wait, i see.

funny how some people are already declaring this machina reissue the definitive version of the album. I FUCKING KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO THAT. I SWEAR. GAH! you're fucking ridiculous. it doesn't even exist yet.

it has "existed" in billy corgan's mind for a dozen years, if not more.

[ItsSoPringles]

CoolAsIceCream, on 19 December 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

hold your horses. i've got the answer. didn't think of this earlier, but i just called billy and simply asked him. he said what the fuck why are you discussing this i decide it's my music NO PRESENT FOR ANYONE!

so yeah, well done, thread starter. thanks a lot.

the correct term was
NO GIFT FOR COOLASCREAM!!!!

then everyone else gets machina reissues

[Mayfair]

snail33, on 19 December 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

it has "existed" in billy corgan's mind for a dozen years, if not more.

so if its not in this exact order:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Machina_chart.jpg


you are gonna lose your fucking mind and scream "WHAT IS IT ALL FOR!?!?!?!? GAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!" and end your life?