[DrownPumpkin]

meh, on 14 March 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Let's look at the facts shall we?

Speaking commericially/culturally......

Gish - success
Siamese Dream - success
MCIS - success
Adore - fail
Machina - fail
MSOTS - fail
TFE - fail
Blinking with fists - fail
Zeitgeist - fail
TGBK - fail
Oceania - ? But I know what my money's on..

The fact is, the world basically forgot about billy and the pumpkins the day after Adore was released.

How in the world could you call Adore a commerical OR cultural failure? 1 million in the US alone is not a commerical flop. Granted, it's no MCIS numbers, but most artists out there would kill for those kind of numbers.

I don't know how you're evaluating its cultural impact, either. I'm fairly sure Adore heavily influenced a LOT of (shitty) emo bands (MCR to give an example). Adore is like the Pixies/The Velvet Underground-not a ridiculous amount of people heard it, but every one of those that did started a band.

[awsmsc]

I don't really see the Adore connection to MCR (granted, I haven't heard many of their songs). I've never heard music that reminds me of Adore, so I'm curious what shitty emo bands were influenced by it.

[V_____]

meh, on 14 March 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Let's look at the facts shall we?

Speaking commericially/culturally......

Gish - moderate success 1,000,000+
Siamese Dream - success 4,000,000+ US
MCIS - huge success 9,800,000 US
Adore - success 1,100,000 US and 3,000,000+ worldwide
Machina - moderate success 500,000 +
MSOTS - moderate fail 90,000
TFE - fail 63,000
Blinking with fists - debuted as the number one poetry book in the country at the time
Zeitgeist - moderate success 500,000+
TGBK - fail
Oceania - ?

The fact is, the world basically forgot about billy and the pumpkins the day after Adore was released.

Edited to be less stupid.

[marquisinspades]

Oh dear, don't diss Adore....
After the record company heard Adore they all smiled at the band, in the manner a father smiles at his childrens artwork, and reportedly said 'that is a work of true beauty'.
What is less well know is that after the meeting one of them walked out and threw himself off the building roof. Another Exec was taken to hospital to have a staple gun removed from his throat. Two days leter the CEO was witnessed by passer byes 'kissing a photo of his family before driving his car into the ocean'.
I think friends that these facts speak for themselves.
Dress it up how you want, Adore's sales figures say it all. '1 million in the US alone is not a commerical flop' - erm... 1 million from a time when people still bought cd's ain't great. In fact, when your one of the hightest profiled bands of the era and your last lp sold 10x that number it's catastrophic.
Strange how most rock music fans don't take well to electronica isn't it?
Should we even care about the commercial success of the band when the art is the important thing?
On one hand, no, but then yes because each impacts the other. That is the point of all my reguritated nonsense. History repeats itself and some of the 'launch innovations' and comments Corgan is coming out with lately doesn't in my mind seem very helpful in promoting the coming album.
Innovate, develop, but don't deliberately bite the record industries feeding hand.

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

The more I read, the more I begin to believe that the music industry is falling woefully behind the video game industry. http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/board_new/public/style_emoticons/default/what.gif

[Martine Castonguay]

Honestly, he is really difficult to understand. I tend to believe he is mirroring the society which is being not coherent. Doing the contrary of the talk, you see what I mean? Precocious, strippers, imitation, fame, poseurs... Doesn't ring something? 

Yesterday,  I listened two marvelous comedians speaking of their newest theater play, an adaptation of Jabberwocky, Lewis Caroll's poem. They spoke of their motivation doing what they do as art, saying exactly what Billy spoke about there, being part of the change. At least showing some things they see about the world. They spoke about the way we are acting, taking the wave when it's passing and forgetting it after. We are against this and that when it's the trend (the moral well-meaning (not sure if it is the good translation for "morale bien-pensante")) but it's not a strong and deep value in ourself. Living deeply what we are talking about.  

In the past, I saw Billy with a strong position in the thinking and it was an  interesting part in Smashing Pumpkin. I often thought he used distortion to present his thoughts in a non preachy way. With time, I don't know. I don't know if I gave him more than what he was doing really. So, it's difficult to like or dislike something when we don't know what it is really. I believe it is contributing to the diminution in the interest about his work. We don't know what he is talking about because what he says doesn't correspond with what he does. At least, at the first level; in the direct form.

I know much musicians and artists making a great difference in the world, being marvelous human beings and giving their point of view about the world, being deeply involved in this world. Maybe they don't have the same visibility but what counting is not the visibility but what they really are doing deeply for the world. 

Personally, I do hope, deeply inside of himself, Billy is coming from the family of this kind of artist but I know this family exists and it's the kind I support. 

[DrownPumpkin]

LostSoul, why on earth do you think I'm fussing Adore. It's tied for my favourite album of all time. I'm doing the opposite.

LostSoul, why on earth do you think I'm dissing Adore? It's tied for my favourite album of all time. I'm doing the opposite.

[lucciola]

nice post, martine.

Martine Castonguay, on 15 March 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Honestly, he is really difficult to understand. I tend to believe he is mirroring the society which is being not coherent.

Do you believe this is intentional?

[RottingApples]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 15 March 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

The more I read, the more I begin to believe that the music industry is falling woefully behind the video game industry. http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/board_new/public/style_emoticons/default/what.gif

Without question.

marquisinspades, on 15 March 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

That is the point of all my reguritated nonsense. History repeats itself and some of the 'launch innovations' and comments Corgan is coming out with lately doesn't in my mind seem very helpful in promoting the coming album.
Innovate, develop, but don't deliberately bite the record industries feeding hand.

Yeah, I wonder how the record company he just signed with feels about all this "record companies are evil and destroy artists" etc. stuff...

[breathesgelatin]

RottingApples, on 15 March 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Yeah, I wonder how the record company he just signed with feels about all this "record companies are evil and destroy artists" etc. stuff...

I am not sure he signed with a traditional record label.

[LostSoul]

DrownPumpkin, on 15 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

LostSoul, why on earth do you think I'm fussing Adore. It's tied for my favourite album of all time. I'm doing the opposite.

LostSoul, why on earth do you think I'm dissing Adore? It's tied for my favourite album of all time. I'm doing the opposite.

Um, what? Sorry, I have short term memory loss. Where on fuck's Earth did I scrutinize you for that? Please redirect me. If I did and I merely forgot, then please re-educate me.

As for bands influenced by Adore, there are plenty, but they are more so influenced by TSP as a whole. MCR, all the scene bands of today essentially. Also, Deftones. Chino Moreno has stated that Adore "really speaks" to him, and he listens to it a lot on tour.

[Fernando]

RottingApples, on 14 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Then why is he still harping on it? You'd think if he's been aware and talking about it all these years now he wouldn't still be complaining.

Because things didn't change, not for a better place. We are in the middle of the process and he's trying to fix that, to find a new way to make music in a big level, to change things....

You are all saying that Billy's rant is due to his "irrelevant" position in music today. So, let's see what other artists are saying about the same questions!

1 - "[It'll be] only a matter of time. Months rather than years before the music business establishment completely folds."

2 - "I think for a lot of years there was a lot of unnecessary overhead in record companies; they were kind of making too much money and now it has gone normal again."

3 - "The internet has obviously wiped music off the human map – killed the record shop, and killed the patience of labels who consider debut sales of 300,000 to not be good enough. There are no risks taken with music anymore – no social commentary songs, no individualism. This is because everyone is deemed instantly replaceable."

4 - “The music business has changed now, man. It’s full of fuckin’ wankers. If they can’t flog your arse, then they ain’t giving you a record deal. If they can’t sell you to little kids who don’t know shit from clay, they will not fuckin’ take a chance on you.”

5 - "I don’t even know why I would want to be on a label in a few years, because I don’t think it’s going to work by labels and by distribution systems in the same way. The absolute transformation of everything that we ever thought about music will take place within 10 years, and nothing is going to be able to stop it. I see absolutely no point in pretending that it’s not going to happen. I’m fully confident that copyright, for instance, will no longer exist in 10 years, and authorship and intellectual property is in for such a bashing."

6 - “It’s a mystery to me why the music business is fixated with age. It’s as if you suddenly stop being relevant or capable of making music.”


Can you guess who said those quotes?

1 - Thom Yorke, 2010.

2 - Björk, 2011.

3 - Morrissey, 2011.

4 - Noel Gallagher, 2010.

5 - David Bowie, 2012.

6 - Michael Stipe, 2003.

So, I don't think it's about being relevant or rich or famous or talented. It's an obvious question!

[Lunatic]

Fernando, on 15 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

4 - “The music business has changed now, man. It’s full of fuckin’ wankers. If they can’t flog your arse, then they ain’t giving you a record deal. If they can’t sell you to little kids who don’t know shit from clay, they will not fuckin’ take a chance on you.”

3 - Morrissey, 2011.

Oh, Morissey. I read this in his voice before I even realized that it was him. :rofl:/>

[CoolAsIceCream]

Lunatic, on 15 March 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Oh, Morissey. I read this in his voice before I even realized that it was him. :rofl:/>

it wasn't him.

gee. it's not that hard to link the identical numbers.

[GracefulSwan]

Number 4 was obviously Noel Gallagher, even without seeing the numbers. Morrissey is too well-spoken to have said something like that.

[odracir]

Now to change a bit the subject here, anyone noticed the recent tweets by Kerry Brown about Corgan comments at SXSW?. seems like things didnt end in good terms after all.

[RottingApples]

odracir, on 15 March 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Now to change a bit the subject here, anyone noticed the recent tweets by Kerry Brown about Corgan comments at SXSW?. seems like things didnt end in good terms after all.

What was he saying?

[Martine Castonguay]

lucciola, on 15 March 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Do you believe this is intentional?

Is the mirroring intentional?

I really believed it was. He said lately SP isn't a political band rather a social (?) band. I'm not sure it is the right word but in my understanding it meant being about the culture.  Zeitgeist was in this way.  Reflection on the era. 

I believe it goes beyond the music. 

Is the incoherency intentional? 

If he is mirroring intentionally, I believe the incoherence is part of the mirroring. 

What always surprise me is the fact he is never questioned about that. Is it about everyone doesn't interested by him and what he is saying? Is it about political correctness? It is as if he adds layer after layer to provoke questioning without result. And I believe it is part of his worry about the ambient culture, we accept everything without questioning, without asking ourselves if it makes sense.

What is the coherence speaking of the bands right now without a deep concern for what they do only for the fame and the money and on the other hand hanging out for years with Tila Tequila, Jessica Simpson or the Veronicas?  Are we speaking here of people making quality or even having a significant impact on the quality of the culture? I don't know your definition but for me it doesn't seem in this way. 

And his SXSW's presence is really provoking.

I can be wrong but I believe that he chose to influence the culture from the inside and not of above. 

[Parksey]

Lunatic, on 15 March 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Oh, Morissey. I read this in his voice before I even realized that it was him. :rofl:/>

:what:/>

[nasalscarecrow]

I can imagine anything annoying in Morrissey's voice.

[mayday27]

It would be more effective to "be the change you wish to see in the world" instead of constantly blabbering about what doesn't work or "annoying poseurs". It's more direct way to get your point across and about 1000x less boring.

With all of this "peoples music is not quality" theme, it's not setting a nice atmosphere up for the new album. Flashbacks of right before MCTIS was being released ... "we want to make the Wall of the generation". Why hd does this every time I do not know. No learning effect has occurred as of yet.

Honestly I think he is capable of a lot but IMO he gets in the way of himself frequently

[RottingApples]

mayday27, on 15 March 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

It would be more effective to "be the change you wish to see in the world" instead of constantly blabbering about what doesn't work or "annoying poseurs". It's more direct way to get your point across and about 1000x less boring.

Yes. Thank you.

[odracir]

RottingApples, on 15 March 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

What was he saying?

By Kerry Brown:

All @billy s and the others "gatekeeper" talk is just way off. They should be disusing the "keymaster" http://t.co/6DkTh4jr

david Bowie ain't scared of posers or technology or making art that resonates w deferent generations, same as the Stones & U2

I'm not down with the artist as victim - its total B.S. #firstworldwhiteguyproblems

the artists must write from their heart and own point of view. Everyone is scared why? Because No one will like them?

this is true but Great artist r able to swing from movement to movement. U2,Stones,Bowie,Prince or whatever he is called now

what makes an artist relevant? who is the judge? what is the gauge? pitchfork? HDTV? VH1? Ticket Sales? youtube? fuse? word of mouth?

[RottingApples]

odracir, on 15 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

By Kerry Brown:

All @billy s and the others "gatekeeper" talk is just way off. They should be disusing the "keymaster" http://t.co/6DkTh4jr

david Bowie ain't scared of posers or technology or making art that resonates w deferent generations, same as the Stones & U2

I'm not down with the artist as victim - its total B.S. #firstworldwhiteguyproblems

the artists must write from their heart and own point of view. Everyone is scared why? Because No one will like them?

this is true but Great artist r able to swing from movement to movement. U2,Stones,Bowie,Prince or whatever he is called now

what makes an artist relevant? who is the judge? what is the gauge? pitchfork? HDTV? VH1? Ticket Sales? youtube? fuse? word of mouth?

Sounds to me like Kerry had enough of Billy's shpeal too.

Again, I hope Billy really comes around on this: that Oceania is a great record, with great music, great lyrics, great vocals, and great production, and that hopefully this whole "experience" thing is something truly worthwhile that enhances the music, rather than come across as a straight gimmick. I really do.

But it's tough to get past the cynicism at this point. Still looking forward to the reissues, though.

[mayday27]

Apparently gimmicks are soulless yet in the wrestling stuff i remember him specifically saying that it was a goal to get the people to (something like this): "iinvest emotionally in the gimmick". which of course totally is nauseating altogether. oh and the audience apparently is not sophisticated on many levels (as he has stated more than once while also asking for their support), and yet his seemingly intelligent pontifications are often circular and contradicting. uh ...??? I still adore him as an artist but he almost often makes it hard for people to like him. he's singing about a self stated "isolation" theme and yet the world is entering the most interconnected phase yet. so in terms of culture being connected to music we shall see how this unwinds.

Part of evolution is that people expand on what has come before. It's not like one day man just picked up a guitar and made awesomeness right off the bat. In this way we are inseparable from those who came before. Different off shoots of elements of sounds from really exceptional artists is to be expected and yes there are those few who seem to really punch through to the next level. Its nothing to get uptight about it just the way of the diversity of expression. I think there are some really unique mainstream artists out there. I think that Adelle is one of them.

[Gr3g3]

odracir, on 15 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

By Kerry Brown:

All @billy s and the others "gatekeeper" talk is just way off. They should be disusing the "keymaster" http://t.co/6DkTh4jr

david Bowie ain't scared of posers or technology or making art that resonates w deferent generations, same as the Stones & U2

I'm not down with the artist as victim - its total B.S. #firstworldwhiteguyproblems

the artists must write from their heart and own point of view. Everyone is scared why? Because No one will like them?

this is true but Great artist r able to swing from movement to movement. U2,Stones,Bowie,Prince or whatever he is called now

what makes an artist relevant? who is the judge? what is the gauge? pitchfork? HDTV? VH1? Ticket Sales? youtube? fuse? word of mouth?

Uhhh...alll the bands Kerry listed are older groups...really dumb.

[Martine Castonguay]

Do you know Robert Gravel? I'm sure not. 
He was comedian (died too young) for who integrity was a master word. He created with few friends an experimental theater, a place to "try" different things without bothering if it would be excellent, just correct or really awful. Really an experimentation.  Besides, he worked as comedian in great roles for traditional theater and television. 

One of these experimentations was a joint between hockey rules and improvisation.  The comedians, becoming improvisers for the occasion, were in team on a small surface looking like a skating rink with audience all around. The rules were similar to those of hockey. The show was supposed to be for one night. So popular, they added 16 representations.  

www.lni.ca 

It was 30 years ago. It's now played in 35 countries in 7 languages. 

One of the comedian I spoke in my earlier post played in the most recent teams of the LNI.  Do you imagine how much this experimentation have influenced the ambient culture? 

[cleric]

brown sure seems butthurt over something.

[Parksey]

if anyone here honestly agrees with billy and thinks that no one listens to albums or that there's no good bands out there making great albums then dat shit cray.

[Fernando]

So I am, no one listens to albums (as we used to do). I know there are a lot of good bands/albums out there, but it's not the same thing as it was 20 years ago.

[cleric]

Parksey, on 16 March 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

if anyone here honestly agrees with billy and thinks that no one listens to albums or that there's no good bands out there making great albums then dat shit cray.

where/when did billy say that no one listens to albums? he is QUITE OBVIOUSLY talking about people listening to albums LESS OFTEN than in the past. you need to get your facts straight because your post seems silly.

[BitterRootOfSelf]

When Oceania is out I was planning on smoking a j, putting on my good headphones, closing my eyes, laying down, and listening to the whole thing. I didn't need billy to convince me to do it I was just going to, cuz that's what I do with my favorite bands. In fact with every Teagarden release I would listen to everything starting with song for a son to the the most current release before I even heard the current release. I would agree that less people do that these days less and less starting with the change from records to CDs and even more from CDs to mp3s and iTunes. I still think most adults today generally listen to albums as a whole but I cant say the same for the younger generation. Mostly current high school kids and most college kids. I think billy is just trying to bring that experience back and trying to find a way to do it possibly through some visual experience to force you to want to watch the whole thing. I've been planning with my band for years now that our album will have a video animation project tied to the all the songs and possibly in 3d as well. See billy, not all of the youth is so corrupted This experience I think will be the future of music. This singles mentality if not a trend is just a new genre of music. To me there is now a huge difference between radio songs and bands and actual artists. I believe billy is an artist.

And why does everyone think Adele is such an artist. At the Grammys when she won she went up on stage with the guy that wrote her songs for her and thanked him.. Sure she has a great voice but still

[pastup]

I just wanted to throw out that Billy has said in recent interviews, "I know the safe version of Billy Corgan. I know the safe version of smashing pumkins...It's boring" etc etc

so while it seems as though he doesn't know what he's talking about, I still think it's a possibility that he's just trying to be contentious because otherwise he's bored. The question is whether it's intentional or not but I sometimes suspect it is given his love for wrestling and playing the "heel" aka the guy that's supposed to get booed.

[Dusty]

I mean, does anyone think it was an accident that Billy has drawn all this attention to himself (trending on Twitter for at least two days in a row, all the interviews) and he also dropped the Oceania release "ballpark" the same day? I don't think it's calculated, but he is certainly self aware. Like, he genuinely believes these things, but very well knows that this is drawing critisim and acclaim from many corners. I would be expecting the real release stuff while he's still in the spotlight.

[RottingApples]

Fernando, on 16 March 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

I know there are a lot of good bands/albums out there, but it's not the same thing as it was 20 years ago.

You're right. You have to go looking for them. They won't be spoonfed to you by MTV anymore.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

odracir, on 15 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

what makes an artist relevant? who is the judge? what is the gauge? pitchfork? HDTV? VH1? Ticket Sales? youtube? fuse? word of mouth?

... HDTV? :scatch:/>

[Arachnea]

RottingApples, on 16 March 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

You're right. You have to go looking for them. They won't be spoonfed to you by MTV anymore.

Exactly. Yet people also did the same thing before MTV and certainly during the 80s. MTV was not telling people to listen to Bauhaus, The Cure or Siouxsie and Banshees until the late 80s and early 90s. People had to discover those bands on their own, usually by word of mouth or hanging out in certain social groups or hangouts.

[lucciola]

Arachnea, on 16 March 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Exactly. Yet people also did the same thing before MTV and certainly during the 80s. MTV was not telling people to listen to Bauhaus, The Cure or Siouxsie and Banshees until the late 80s and early 90s. People had to discover those bands on their own, usually by word of mouth or hanging out in certain social groups or hangouts.

Yes! Turn on the radio or mtv in the early-mid 90s and there was Nirvana, Pumpkins, AIC, Cure, Jane's, Sonic Youth ... dozens of genuinely good bands, easily accessible. I remember my local college radio station playing all of Buckley's Live at Sin-e one night. (the dj saying, "I might get in trouble for this but I really think you should hear it") In this sense, that brief 5 year or so era of music was second only to the late 60s to early 70s when local aor radio stations were largely free from corporate influence and played whatever they wanted. Otherwise, the main means of transmission have been clogged with junk. The 80s are a prime example. Finding good quality music usually requires a little effort.

This post has been edited by lucciola: 16 March 2012 - 09:24 AM

[Raoul]

odracir, on 15 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

By Kerry Brown:

All @billy s and the others "gatekeeper" talk is just way off. They should be disusing the "keymaster" http://t.co/6DkTh4jr

david Bowie ain't scared of posers or technology or making art that resonates w deferent generations, same as the Stones & U2

I'm not down with the artist as victim - its total B.S. #firstworldwhiteguyproblems

the artists must write from their heart and own point of view. Everyone is scared why? Because No one will like them?

this is true but Great artist r able to swing from movement to movement. U2,Stones,Bowie,Prince or whatever he is called now

what makes an artist relevant? who is the judge? what is the gauge? pitchfork? HDTV? VH1? Ticket Sales? youtube? fuse? word of mouth?

Kerry knows where its at. Shame he can;t write music like Billy as otherwise we would have a great album to listen to

[JSapp]

lucciola, on 16 March 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Yes! Turn on the radio or mtv in the early-mid 90s and there was Nirvana, Pumpkins, AIC, Cure, Jane's, Sonic Youth ... dozens of genuinely good bands, easily accessible. I remember my local college radio station playing all of Buckley's Live at Sin-e one night. (the dj saying, "I might get in trouble for this but I really think you should hear it") In this sense, that brief 5 year or so era of music was second only to the late 60s to early 70s when local aor radio stations were largely free from corporate influence and played whatever they wanted. Otherwise, the main means of transmission have been clogged with junk. The 80s are a prime example. Finding good quality music usually requires a little effort.

There was also TONS of shitty music being played on MTV and commercial radio during that time. Even in the best times for music you had to sift through shit to get to the good stuff.

[Arachnea]

JSapp, on 16 March 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

There was also TONS of shitty music being played on MTV and commercial radio during that time. Even in the best times for music you had to sift through shit to get to the good stuff.

That is also true. Nostalgia may be getting in the way of some of Billy's assessments.

[JSapp]

Arachnea, on 16 March 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

That is also true. Nostalgia may be getting in the way of some of Billy's assessments.

Sure. That happens to us all. As someone who grew up in the 90's I get nostalgic about that music too. But then I remember while I was listening to SP, Nirvana, Janes Addiction Etc.. most of the kids in my school were listening to Mariah Carey and Hootie and the Blowfish and Boyz 2 Men.

[ShamanO]

I guess I was listening to all of that based on where I was and who I was hanging out with..

This post has been edited by ShamanO: 16 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

[Arachnea]

Is it possible that Billy does not understand that albums do not sell like they used to and that it has nothing to do with the quality of the work? It sounds like he is associating the two. I do not think he truly understands how much the collapse of the music industry, and the cultural and technological shift has changed the way the way people listen to and obtain music.

http://www.austinchr...off-the-record/

"Let me put it this way: I should not be here to the level that I still I am. If the music out there was that fucking great, where is someone crushing me on the numbers? They're not. Our generation crushed a lot of bands right out the fucking door. And they had to sit on the sidelines for 20 fucking years until people got nostalgic and brought that stuff back." "I'm standing exactly where every artist should hope to stand," said Corgan.