[purelunasea80]

hey, jus' sayin'...even though i like a lot of "dark" music, it can drag me down sometimes (i.e. radiohead-as good as hail to the thief is, i find it hard to listen to)...and i feel like bc was too bent on steering sp toward this goth-metal beast around the time of machina II and then again with zeitgeist (which really disappointed me; i would have rather had something zwanny)...

and much of judas 0 is pretty damn dark and even creepy/sinister in spots (because you are, lucky 13, aeroplane, saturn9)...but it's never dark for dark's sake...and the most confessional/emotional songs on it are rapidly taking a place among my very favorites of all time, up there with the siyls, rubys, marthas, snails and hummers...winterlong (love the way his voice breaks in the beginning of the 2nd chorus), waiting, blissed and gone and set the ray to jerry are all gorgeous and stirring, and here's to the atom bomb should have been a single somehow, it gives me the same buzz as things like cherub rock, here is no why, frail and bedazzled, untitled, muzzle, etc...and i don't really have a problem with because you are-it does kind of have an alice in chains thing to it, which someone on here said a few weeks back...slow dawn and saturn9 are real groovy, my mistake is VERY underappreciated (the way the mellotron or organ or whatever is just a few cents off in terms of pitch is a great trick), and lucky 13 and marquis in spades are 2 of the best flat-out barnburners in the sp catalog (great cheap thrills in the bc screams and f-bombs)...

and back to point 1, ass backwards as i am-soot and stars. what a fascinating, stunning piece. essentially one simple melody for 6 minutes, an almost funereal, treated piano part, no bass, no drums, no guitars...no real verses or choruses-the melody does change, but it's msotly a play off the main motif...no repeated lyrical sections...and what would seem to be stream-of-consciousness writing that comes off, at first blush, as a bit precious and pretentious, but which reveals itself over time to be as rich and thoughtful (and naked) a soliloquy-which is really what it is-as any you're likely to hear in a pop song...and i am submitting here that soot and stars represents the most personal, intimate, revealing, raw lyric of all the many QUITE raw songs in the SP canon.

thoughts?

[Her]

Even though musically I find this song weak, the lyrics more than make up for it. I do love the pumpkins, but it is rare that Billy is this cohesive with his lyrics. It does seem like this song was inspired by his life time of negative experiences and his(new)dedication to unearthing the positive, which are indeed personal sentiments. I feel like GATGC may be a bit more personal (if you consider Glass as an extension of Billy) because it is so earnest about life and death, but Soot and Stars is surely more introspective and declaratory than the majority of his work. Soot in my hair and Stars in my hands is a line not to be overlooked; that pretty much sums up Billy's entire opinion of himself, as much as I can infer.

[wildabeastly]

Soot and Stars is up there, don't get me wrong.


But I think that a whole lot, like 85% of his songs, are very personal. It's why I think I often times look past his less than stellar voice -- because he sings the songs with such a passion that it's evident how personal they are to him.

Also, can't see how a song he said he wrote on the brink of suicide can't be considered at least as personal.


So, no.

[Cundinama]

i always thought blissed and gone was his most personal song

[purelunasea80]

wildabeastly, on 14 April 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Soot and Stars is up there, don't get me wrong.


But I think that a whole lot, like 85% of his songs, are very personal. It's why I think I often times look past his less than stellar voice -- because he sings the songs with such a passion that it's evident how personal they are to him.

Also, can't see how a song he said he wrote on the brink of suicide can't be considered at least as personal.


So, no.

i assume you're referring to "today." but i would say that just because a song was written at that point, doesn't necessarily mean that it represents the deepest of one's expressions. i thought about that too, but "today" isn't shot through with nearly the raw directness of s&s, though the lyrics are obviously a lot darker than the music is. of course, i agree that most of his songs are very personal. that's exactly why i was moved to post this-because, upon listening to s&s a few more times recently, it struck me that it was startlingly raw even when compared with all his other songs.

[purelunasea80]

Cundinama, on 14 April 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:

i always thought blissed and gone was his most personal song

i'd say it's super-up there, as are:

s&s
ruby
martha
muzzle
33
once upon a time
disarm
today
to forgive (one i don't think is expressed very creatively)
siyl
try try try
this time
with every light
soma

[alan]

purelunasea80, on 14 April 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

and back to point 1, ass backwards as i am-soot and stars. what a fascinating, stunning piece. essentially one simple melody for 6 minutes, an almost funereal, treated piano part, no bass, no drums, no guitars...no real verses or choruses-the melody does change, but it's msotly a play off the main motif...no repeated lyrical sections...and what would seem to be stream-of-consciousness writing that comes off, at first blush, as a bit precious and pretentious, but which reveals itself over time to be as rich and thoughtful (and naked) a soliloquy-which is really what it is-as any you're likely to hear in a pop song...and i am submitting here that soot and stars represents the most personal, intimate, revealing, raw lyric of all the many QUITE raw songs in the SP canon.

thoughts?

it makes me feel hypnotized every time i hear it. Easily top 10 pumpkins tracks for me. probably top 5. esepcially love the lyrics about the open road, and all that it suggests, and the way his voice cracks just a little on "strawberry wine". phenomenal piece of art.

[straw man]

Even though I would have the same critique of the song (repetitive, too sparse etc) there is something really special about the confessional nature of the song. It's a real honest to goodness evaluation of where he's at in his life.

I wrote a song shortly after this one came out with the idea that I would copy some of the same production and song writing techniques (i.e. extreme echo). I didn't have much to work with (I used an old vhs-c camera with a dead battery to record 2 minutes of music). The lyrics and singing style are intentionally echoing "soot & stars" I also found out shortly there after that the song I wrote has a lot of similarities to the Pearl Harbor theme song. So it's kind of a "ugly duckling" kind of recording.

If that didn't scare you away here's a link to the music.

[oryann]

I agree, really. I always thought this too. It's like a steady stream of his thoughts. Poetic, personal, beautiful. While I think other songs match it in personal...ness.. I definitely think this is the most stripped down, direct one.

This, Blank Page, For Martha, With Every Light, To Forgive, Rotten Apples, XYU, and Disarm are the ones for me. That seem most personal that is.

But yeah, Soot and Stars is definitely on the top. Also a favorite of mine.

[alan]

If the question is just what's billys most personal song I'd go for for Martha. like hands down. His tears falling on his mothers grave are given meaning in the solo in the song, and the way the lyric is barely audible underneath the solo is like the tide of emotion has immersed his words. Heaven from above? Absolutely. To Sheila is next. Make my heart dance like a puppeteer. Although I suppose they'd be his most personal songs about his personal relations with other people. As to what's most personal from inside him? Soot and stars is good, so's blue skies bring tears; billys kind of an alien from another planet.

[mayday27]

"i often speak of you but the you is always me
cause when i speak of me it's me i ask of you ..."

[vsnares]

after re-reading the lyrics, Soot and Stars does seem honest and confessional. but I also agree that quite a bit of his work is very literal in its mentioning of real life events (e.g. This Time)

I feel Billy often talks about his relationship with the people who listen to his music, like in Blissed and Gone, Dross, Untitled

[RottingApples]

I was really hoping he was going to add Soot and Stars to the tour last year, after playing it at the Record Store Day thing. It's always been a personal favorite of mine.

As to whether it's his most "personal" or not... it's hard to say. There's no question that it is a very personal track, but I don't think anyone other than Corgan himself could say something was the "most personal" of all that he's written. I would actually think the song he considers most personal is probably a track we wouldn't guess.

[sootandstars]

Bump.

Two reasons; (a) I love this song for too many reasons to mention and (b) I made a vid for it (which is posted elsewhere on the forums but obviously most relevant here perhaps).

http://s252.photobuc...ideobyDylan.mp4

[snail33]

sootandstars, on 25 December 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

Bump.

Two reasons; (a) I love this song for too many reasons to mention and (b) I made a vid for it (which is posted elsewhere on the forums but obviously most relevant here perhaps).

http://s252.photobuc...ideobyDylan.mp4

honestly i don't really dig that video...i rarely like when people make clips to accompany a song and its lyrics, because usually they do what you did, making it way too literal and imposing a specific visual meaning on every single frame of the song. and the still of d'arcy from the "disarm" video over the "play my guitar" part is just...yeah, no.

[crepe]

is from adore or machina era?

[Fernando]

It's in Adore Demos II

[Songwriter]

Crestfallen seems, to me, to be VERY personal, meaningful to him. Sad...

[RottingApples]

Someone should ask Billy on Twitter if he would consider putting out Judas O as it's own release. Think about it- less repetitive material on Adore and Machina.

[ItsSoPringles]

Songwriter, on 02 January 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Crestfallen seems, to me, to be VERY personal, meaningful to him. Sad...

everything off adore was personal, cept to shiela since its about a fictional person named shiela

[LostSoul]

?

Pretty sure it is just as personal as any other song. Daphne Descends is personal, and who did he know by that name. Remember, MCIS utilized the names 'Lily' and 'Ruby' to refer to lovers. And also,'my one & only'. Billy likes to make up names to refer to people he's had experience with. Nothing wrong with it, in fact it is smart because he isn't wreaking havoc on that person's reputation.

Anyone ever think what the title, "Daphne Descends" means? I was thinking about the meaning of the song, and why he chose that title. The song is clearly about a girl he loved letting him down and neglecting him. Perhaps he is even alluding to her cheating on him. We also know that this is around the era where Billy was in the earliest phases of him truly embracing 'God'. In which case, 'Daphne Descends' could very well mean "Daphne Is Going To Hell." Billy is one vengeful dude when he wants to be. Especially in all of the songs where he refers to a woman (who we can presume to be Chris) wronging him, and his distaste for her. ie: Annie Dog, Ava Adore, Blank Page, Daphne Descends.

[frednirv632]

LostSoul, on 05 January 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

?

Pretty sure it is just as personal as any other song. Daphne Descends is personal, and who did he know by that name. Remember, MCIS utilized the names 'Lily' and 'Ruby' to refer to lovers. And also,'my one & only'. Billy likes to make up names to refer to people he's had experience with. Nothing wrong with it, in fact it is smart because he isn't wreaking havoc on that person's reputation.

Anyone ever think what the title, "Daphne Descends" means? I was thinking about the meaning of the song, and why he chose that title. The song is clearly about a girl he loved letting him down and neglecting him. Perhaps he is even alluding to her cheating on him. We also know that this is around the era where Billy was in the earliest phases of him truly embracing 'God'. In which case, 'Daphne Descends' could very well mean "Daphne Is Going To Hell." Billy is one vengeful dude when he wants to be. Especially in all of the songs where he refers to a woman (who we can presume to be Chris) wronging him, and his distaste for her. ie: Annie Dog, Ava Adore, Blank Page, Daphne Descends.

i'm almost positive the story of daphne and apollo has something (if not everything) to do with the title of this song.

"Angry at this insult, Eros shot two arrows, one tipped in gold, one blunted and tipped with lead. The arrow dipped in gold had the power to create insatiable lust in a person, while the other created absolute abhorrence towards all things romantic and passionate. The unfortunate soul who was struck with that arrow would have no desire to love anyone. The arrow dipped in gold struck Apollo, but the arrow dipped in lead struck fair Daphne. ... Apollo chased down the maiden, desperate for her love, but she wanted nothing to do with him, and she ran from him endlessly."

http://www.pantheon....s/d/daphne.html

[LostSoul]

Wow. I like that much better than mine. :lol:/>

[frednirv632]

LostSoul, on 05 January 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Wow. I like that much better than mine. :lol:/>

Yeah, I've always thought it was a rather elegant song. It doesn't retell the story verbatim, but you still get a real sense of the emotions and dilemmas involved with unrequited love. I also like that the song switches the roles of daphne and appollo i.e. female lusting over a male who does not love in return.

apologies for derailing this thread.