[ItsSoPringles]

JSapp, on 22 March 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

Trim over half of MCIS? You are a madman

we could do without take me down, cupid, and we only come out at night

[JSapp]

ItsSoPringles, on 23 March 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

we could do without take me down, cupid, and we only come out at night

That wouldn't eliminate an hour and fifteen minutes of content.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

ItsSoPringles, on 23 March 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

cupid, and we only come out at night

Man, fo real? Those are a couple of my favorites, easily.

[RottingApples]

pastup, on 22 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

being "relevant" depends on the context of the conversation. Relevant in terms of rock music as a whole or relevant in terms of what's trending today?

and yes Soundgarden's Superunknown was a fuckin kick ass album. Down on the upside was a little watered down and boring for me though.

Down on the Upside had some absolutely great tracks, and about half of the album as a whole is really strong. It's problem is it goes on a little too long (as others said), and too many of the songs start to sound too similar. That's what was great about Superunknown, was every track was top notch (even weird ditties like Head Down and Half), the entire album flowed, and the songs all sounded very different from one another. Every song sounds like a different color.

[chemicalbehavior]

RottingApples, on 23 March 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Down on the Upside had some absolutely great tracks, and about half of the album as a whole is really strong. It's problem is it goes on a little too long (as others said), and too many of the songs start to sound too similar. That's what was great about Superunknown, was every track was top notch (even weird ditties like Head Down and Half), the entire album flowed, and the songs all sounded very different from one another. Every song sounds like a different color.

Idk about Superunknown flowing as a whole album. Have you ever made it through the entire album in one sitting? (Really) It suffers from the same problem mentioned with Down on the Upside in that there's too many songs and they start to sound alike after a while.

Cut out "Mailman", "Limo Wreck", "Kickstand" and even "Half" and then you'd have a very strong argument for Superunknown being a great album.

[pastup]

chemicalbehavior, on 23 March 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Idk about Superunknown flowing as a whole album. Have you ever made it through the entire album in one sitting? (Really) It suffers from the same problem mentioned with Down on the Upside in that there's too many songs and they start to sound alike after a while.

Cut out "Mailman", "Limo Wreck", "Kickstand" and even "Half" and then you'd have a very strong argument for Superunknown being a great album.

Kickstand is a little weak/filler sounding but the rest of those songs were good imo.
..and that's not to say kickstand isn't cool but just that it sounds like something that was written in about an hour and recorded the same day.
But it's also a nice change of pace in the context of the album as a whole.

I've made it through that album in one sitting many times. but none lately.

[snail33]

pastup, on 23 March 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Kickstand is a little weak/filler sounding but the rest of those songs were good imo.
..and that's not to say kickstand isn't cool but just that it sounds like something that was written in about an hour and recorded the same day.
But it's also a nice change of pace in the context of the album as a whole.

I've made it through that album in one sitting many times. but none lately.

i think mailman and limo wreck are pretty groovy; half is a bit of a chore...but kickstand to me is refreshing and keeps the band from bogging down in plodding grunge sludge. superunknown is a great album but i know what you mean--when i was 22 i loved cranking it, but even then fresh tendrils and 4th of july and half dragged it out for me. even spoonman i was never a huge fan of. maybe it it were just let me drown/my wave/mailman/black hole sun/superunknown/limo wreck/head down/day i tried to live/fell on black days/kickstand/like suicide it would be more powerful.

HOWEVER, i have almost come to the point where i prefer down on the upside to superunknown; even though it's also very long, i don't find the songs as samey and sludgy, and the "experimental" stuff and things written outside of cornell's sphere are more interesting to me. the diversity of pretty noose vs. burden vs. never named vs. applebite vs. ty cobb vs. tighter and tighter vs. boot camp is pretty accomplished to me.

[snail33]

BlueSkiesBringTears, on 21 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

This. A couple weeks ago, I was saying about the same thing to a friend -- I said something like, "He was a sum of his influences, and he happened to be particularly good at being that." But my friend thinks Adore is the pièce de résistance of Billy's innovativeness and brilliance, far ahead of its time. (Apparently because of drum machines, synths, and pointless little chirpy and plonky sounds during the first verse of "Tear"). I just think it has some really nice songs.

but how many really fiercely "original" rock artists are really that good? how many have literally hundreds of impeccably composed and realized SONGS? what i mean is how original do you need an artist to be?

sonic youth="original"/annoying
pixies="original"/annoying
velvet underground="original"/annoying
mr. bungle="original"/annoying
radiohead (kid a/amnesiac/king of limbs)="original"/annoying

(*in their time)

smashing pumpkins=sum of parts/brilliant
prince=sum of parts/brilliant
nirvana=sum of parts/brilliant
r.e.m.=sum of parts/brilliant
radiohead (the bends/ok computer/hail to the thief)=sum of parts/brilliant

chemicalbehavior, on 22 March 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Adore was the album that got me into the Pumpkins, and after you cut out the fat ("Annie-Dog", "Shame", "Blank Page") I still believe that it's far superior to the group's previous albums.

shame is an amazing song, one of the best on adore. appels + oranjes should go, or daphne, or perfect, or crestfallen, or--indeed--blank page.

As far as album length goes, if there was one unifying theme of acts from the 90s it's that they would make albums as long as possible. One major factor in this practice was the CD becoming the main medium for music. CDs can hold 80 minutes of music whereas LPs could only hold around half that much before quality loss.

Because of this, most albums from the 90s contain a lot of filler. It's like the concept of "less is more" didn't apply during that decade. For example Soundgarden's Superunknown and Down on the Upside contained 15 and 16 songs respectively, and each album was over an hour in length (70:13 and 65:56), effectively making each impossible to listen to in one sitting.

unless you love music, in which case you have no problem listening to a long album from a great band.

Hell, Metallica's Load had a sticker that stated "79:59" on the CD plastic. I suppose the group was proud that they managed to put as much music on the disc as possible without causing it to skip. :roll:

Anyways, aside from Gish which was a reasonable 45 minutes or so in length, Siamese Dream (62:17), Mellon Collie (121:39) and Adore (73:25) each follow the trend mentioned above and each would've been better had some of the fat been trimmed off to get the around the 45 minute mark.

no.

TwoHeadedBoy, on 23 March 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Man, fo real? Those are a couple of my favorites, easily.

for real back? cupid is transcendent, but wocoan is utterly unnecessary.

[RottingApples]

chemicalbehavior, on 23 March 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Idk about Superunknown flowing as a whole album. Have you ever made it through the entire album in one sitting? (Really) It suffers from the same problem mentioned with Down on the Upside in that there's too many songs and they start to sound alike after a while.

Cut out "Mailman", "Limo Wreck", "Kickstand" and even "Half" and then you'd have a very strong argument for Superunknown being a great album.

Anytime I listen to Superunknown I do from start to finish, in one sitting. A fairly regular occurrence too. I'd say it's flow is similar to that of Mellon Collie, wherein each song is very different stylistically, but each makes sense going into the next. And while there may be some that are "lesser" songs than others (Head Down, Half, Kickstand, comparable to Cupid, WOCOAN, Lily), I would never want to cut them, or wish for them to be cut, as I find they really do add to the overall experience of the album. (On a side, Limo Wreck might be my favorite SG song). Down on the Upside, yes you could cut some songs, and I think they could have been a little more inventive with the production and arrangements of others. It's not a perfect album by any means, but I still find it a strong album, second in SG's catalogue only to Superunknown.

[thebeatle]

chemicalbehavior, on 23 March 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Idk about Superunknown flowing as a whole album. Have you ever made it through the entire album in one sitting? (Really) It suffers from the same problem mentioned with Down on the Upside in that there's too many songs and they start to sound alike after a while.

Cut out "Mailman", "Limo Wreck", "Kickstand" and even "Half" and then you'd have a very strong argument for Superunknown being a great album.

Mailman is an awesome song. As is head down. Two of my favorites from that album

[pastup]

Head Down was always one of my favorites.
I don't listen to Superunknown much anymore. If I want to hear soundgarden I usually pop in Badmotorfinger. It just takes a certain mood but I went trough a time where I thought superunknown was my favorite. It's between those two albums as their best I think.

[RottingApples]

pastup, on 24 March 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Head Down was always one of my favorites.
I don't listen to Superunknown much anymore. If I want to hear soundgarden I usually pop in Badmotorfinger. It just takes a certain mood but I went trough a time where I thought superunknown was my favorite. It's between those two albums as their best I think.

I could never really get into Badmotorfinger as an album (which, I know, is sacrilege for most SG fans). It's got some great songs (mostly the singles), but all the rest are just kind of straight-ahead rock numbers without much behind them to keep them memorable. I guess I'd put it on par with Down on the Upside, but DOTU has more sophistication to it, I feel. It doesn't seem quite as "boneheaded".

[chemicalbehavior]

RottingApples, on 24 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Anytime I listen to Superunknown I do from start to finish, in one sitting. A fairly regular occurrence too. I'd say it's flow is similar to that of Mellon Collie, wherein each song is very different stylistically, but each makes sense going into the next. And while there may be some that are "lesser" songs than others (Head Down, Half, Kickstand, comparable to Cupid, WOCOAN, Lily), I would never want to cut them, or wish for them to be cut, as I find they really do add to the overall experience of the album. (On a side, Limo Wreck might be my favorite SG song). Down on the Upside, yes you could cut some songs, and I think they could have been a little more inventive with the production and arrangements of others. It's not a perfect album by any means, but I still find it a strong album, second in SG's catalogue only to Superunknown.

You must have a lot more free time than I do to make it through Superunknown in one sitting on a regular basis. I listen to a lot of music but have always found Soundgarden albums to be very challenging to listen to all the way through due to there being so much weak material between the strong songs.

I think "Head Down" is one of the best songs on Superunknown, and think if a little more work went into "Half" it could've been just as good. I like that Ben Shepherd sings lead on that one (gives a much needed relief to hearing Chris Cornell's wail all the time), but have always been puzzled as to why Shepherd's voice sounded as screechy as it does while his voice sounds totally different on the call-and-response chorus on "Spoonman" ("Feel the rhythm while you can"/"All my friends are brown and red").

The fundamental flaw with Down on the Upside is that the group effectively went cheap with its production by producing the album themselves. With a few major exceptions (SP/Billy being one of them) it's almost never a good thing when artists decide to produce their own albums imo.

Artists seem to think that because they know how to push buttons and turn knobs that that qualifies them as producers and gives them a perceived justification on saving on production costs. :rolleyes:/> They forget that not having a producer involved with the recording process removes a key person who can hear the material with a different set of ears and challenge the artist to take his music to a different direction, as well as having someone who can say "no", or to at very least say "try something different".

Noel Gallagher is prime example of this. There were a lot of good songs written for Heathen Chemistry but as he was the producer he chose to put weaker songs on the album ("A Quick Peep", "All in the Mind", "Better Man") while stronger songs were regulated to b-sides ("Shout it Out Loud", "Thank You For the Good Times"). Not to mention that the production on that album is shit.

[snail33]

RottingApples, on 24 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

I could never really get into Badmotorfinger as an album (which, I know, is sacrilege for most SG fans). It's got some great songs (mostly the singles), but all the rest are just kind of straight-ahead rock numbers without much behind them to keep them memorable. I guess I'd put it on par with Down on the Upside, but DOTU has more sophistication to it, I feel. It doesn't seem quite as "boneheaded".

i totally agree with what you said here about badmotorfinger--the singles are the best tunes--but down on the upside is MUCH more sophisticated than badmotorfinger, not "on par" at all.

chemicalbehavior, on 24 March 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

You must have a lot more free time than I do to make it through Superunknown in one sitting on a regular basis. I listen to a lot of music but have always found Soundgarden albums to be very challenging to listen to all the way through due to there being so much weak material between the strong songs.

I think "Head Down" is one of the best songs on Superunknown, and think if a little more work went into "Half" it could've been just as good. I like that Ben Shepherd sings lead on that one (gives a much needed relief to hearing Chris Cornell's wail all the time), but have always been puzzled as to why Shepherd's voice sounded as screechy as it does while his voice sounds totally different on the call-and-response chorus on "Spoonman" ("Feel the rhythm while you can"/"All my friends are brown and red").

The fundamental flaw with Down on the Upside is that the group effectively went cheap with its production by producing the album themselves. With a few major exceptions (SP/Billy being one of them) it's almost never a good thing when artists decide to produce their own albums imo.

Artists seem to think that because they know how to push buttons and turn knobs that that qualifies them as producers and gives them a perceived justification on saving on production costs. :rolleyes:/> They forget that not having a producer involved with the recording process removes a key person who can hear the material with a different set of ears and challenge the artist to take his music to a different direction, as well as having someone who can say "no", or to at very least say "try something different".

Noel Gallagher is prime example of this. There were a lot of good songs written for Heathen Chemistry but as he was the producer he chose to put weaker songs on the album ("A Quick Peep", "All in the Mind", "Better Man") while stronger songs were regulated to b-sides ("Shout it Out Loud", "Thank You For the Good Times"). Not to mention that the production on that album is shit.

ok...articulate to me specifically what doesn't sound good on down on the upside that you would attribute to production.

[chemicalbehavior]

snail33, on 24 March 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

ok...articulate to me specifically what doesn't sound good on down on the upside that you would attribute to production.

Dude if you can't hear the quality difference in production between Superunknown and Down on the Upside then you shouldn't be taking part in this thread.

Besides, I went on to mention a number of things a producer generally does for a band in my previous post that were severely needed for DOTU.

[Raoul]

It's actually funny to read this whole thread through and see where all the waiting has made us drift out into completely irrelevant topics of music. Somehoe this turned into a Superunknown review

[Parksey]

there's so many crazy people in this thread.

tremendous bands and albums that have been called bad/irrelevant so far:

- tool
- soundgarden
- pixies
- sonic youth
- half of radiohead's output
- mellon collie

wat

[snail33]

chemicalbehavior, on 25 March 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Dude if you can't hear the quality difference in production between Superunknown and Down on the Upside then you shouldn't be taking part in this thread.

(a) i'm a singer, songwriter, and musician with 20 years' experience gigging and recording with bands. i have perfect pitch. there's no siginificant differece in the sonic quality of superunknown and down on the upside.

Besides, I went on to mention a number of things a producer generally does for a band in my previous post that were severely needed for DOTU.

(b) i know. i read that. doesn't change (a).

[Deleted User Account]

Due to a birth defect, doctors made my ears out of solid gold and recycled vintage microphones from Abbey Road. They're so good I can practically hear people's thoughts (when it's not cloudy). I just want to say there IS a quality difference between Superunknown and Down; the latter sounds FAR superior. Not only do I have perfect pitch, but I can listen to a song and hear things the average joe couldn't, for instance-- on Tighter and Tighter, Chris Cornell had eggs and beans for breakfast, but only a HALF cup of coffee. You can tell because his vocals are clearer, whereas prior to Ty Cobb, he had a Vente Columbian, because his vocals are more raw from the acidic nature of the coffee.

[chemicalbehavior]

snail33, on 25 March 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

(b) i know. i read that. doesn't change (a).

Well you've got perfect pitch. Good for you. :rolleyes:/>

Anyways, the guitar sounds/tones on DOTU aren't as good as they are on SU. Michael Beinhorn (co-producer of SU) is an excellent producer/engineer. He's been nominated for Grammys for his production on Hole's Celebrity Skin and Marilyn Manson's Mechanical Animals as well as a nomination for his work on Fuel's Natural Selection. Beinhorn spent a lot of time with the band getting them to experiment with different drum and guitar sounds and to layer their guitars which gave the album the expansive production sound that it has.

According to Cornell: "Michael Beinhorn was so into sounds. He was so, almost, anal about it, that it took the piss out of us a lot of the time...By the time you get the sounds that you want to record the song, you're sick and tired of playing it." Black Hole Sons!

While DOTU certainly wasn't recorded in a bedroom, the quality of guitar tones and drum sounds is severely lacking throughout DOTU. Added to this is that Cornell's vocals at times sound muddled at times throughout the album.

Listen to how good the guitars sound on songs like "Fresh Tendrils" and "The Day I Tried to Live". The quality of guitar tones and subsequent laying found in those songs is almost non-existant on DOTU.

[pastup]

Parksey, on 25 March 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

there's so many crazy people in this thread.

tremendous bands and albums that have been called bad/irrelevant so far:

- tool
- soundgarden
- pixies
- sonic youth
- half of radiohead's output
- mellon collie

wat

Don't forget Jane's Addiction.