[Inertia]

TBK is not dead unless Billy confirms it. End of story.

[ItsSoPringles]

fernando posted a quote of billy indirectly saying teargarden is dead like 2 pages back,

i dont give a shit if teargarden's release method is dead, give us the damn songs on it and ill be fine, just say fuck it and make a double album to end it, or possibly triple album cause gossamer would eat up a entire disk and maybe leave enough room for a few more songs

[themadcaplaughs]

I do not think people are necessarily attracted to the idea of free, the tarot theme, the artwork, etc. I think the issue runs a little deeper than that.

When Jimmy left in 2009, things were grim. Most people here (myself included) were tempted to just give the band up then and there, but Billy seemed so damn sure in his songs and this 44 song concept album he was going to be working on. The more he talked, the more we felt the name of the band was redeemed. It was going to be a 44-song epic in the vein of Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness and the two Machina albums. It was going to hearken back to the old days of the band by being "psychedelic" and "beautiful." It was going to have (what was at the time) the most clearly defined concept ever on a Smashing Pumpkins record. The idea of releasing the album one song at a time with EPs every so often, and eventually a box set, seemed revolutionary, putting Billy on the same plane as Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails: two bands that can seem to do no wrong. Then we had the Spirits in the Sky shows. The songs worked really well in a small, live setting and Billy and Kerry claimed these were on the "B" and "C" level songs. The "A" level material would be Siamese Dream level. Quite simply, this seemed to be the move that could push Smashing Pumpkins back into the mainstream, even more than fans hoped Zeitgeist would in 2007.

Things even started to be on the right track during the album's initial recording. We were getting daily studio updates from Kerry. Billy, Mike, and Mark were tweeting and recording videos documenting the process of the album's creation. We were getting cool videos like Billy laying down guitar solos or recording keyboards. Then things started going bad. An album that was supposed to be started by Halloween 2009 did not go underway until that December. Things seemed a bit better when "A Song for a Son," "Widow Wake My Mind," and "A Stitch in Time" all got a decent amount of press and positive reviews, but that was about the height of the album's success. It soon became clear that every song that was going to be released was from Spirits in the Sky, Billy's horrible interview with Rolling Stone killed whatever good will he'd built in the public eye, people started complaining about the mixes and how the recorded versions deviated from the accepted (and in some cases even loved) live versions. Then we got the pause between "Astral Planes" and "Freak," which killed any little interest the general public had in the project. "Freak" got some minor radio attention, but mainly dissapeared without any traction. Despite the fact that the songs on EP 2 were miles better than the first one, no one cared. Even the little attention the "Owata" video got was more in a "holy shit that is awful sense."

So to end this long rant, I think it is a mixture of people wanting Billy to FINALLY finish a project he started combined with people hoping that the songs from what became Oceania could have redeemed Teargarden by Kaliedyscope in its initial phase. An album that was an artistic failure, a media failure, and pretty much saw the band at an all time low. This was even furthered by the fact that Billy has more or less admitted he considers the TbK songs so far beneath his normal standards. But for anyone who doubts TbK is dead, I'll leave the quotes to Billy himself...

Quote

I was doing it song by song for a while with the Teargarden project and I just ended up wandering back to wanting to do an album again. Of course people started saying, Well if you're gonna do an album what's it have to do with Teargarden? So that was my clever play with words, just to say I need to do this and it makes sense to me at the moment, and not get too deep about it.

http://www.vmusic.co...illy-corgan-q-a

[ZivotSon]

The release method was a radical idea (i.e., 44 songs for free). But it was drawing little interest. He tried and it didn't work. He's realized it and moved on. The "album within an album" was just spin as he has since admitted. When you think about it, it doesn't really make any sense. He's completely abandoned the release method and Oceania isn't based on the Tarot at all.

The biggest problem is that the TbK material wasn't that strong, particularly the first EP. The studio version of ASFAS was worse than the 2008 live version. WWMM and Astral Planes are a couple of his worst songs ever. You can't start out that way. He should have taken his time, recorded a bunch of songs and started with some "A" material. He didn't. It was doomed from the very beginning.

[Inertia]

ItsSoPringles, on 09 May 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

fernando posted a quote of billy indirectly saying teargarden is dead like 2 pages back,

Billy's words still leaves a lot of ambiguity from what I see. That doesn't say much for those who think TBK is officially dead honestly.

[Deleted User Account]

Inertia, on 09 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

TBK is not dead unless Billy confirms it. End of story.

Yeah bro, because his making a new album (something TGBK was explicitly not) doesn't say it all for him.

[Inertia]

ArticulateEric, on 09 May 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yeah bro, because his making a new album (something TGBK was explicitly not) doesn't say it all for him.

At most, it just increases the chances of Billy canceling TBK.

[Gr3g3]

TBK was the transition needed for the band to gel and get to the point where Billy didn't have to do everything and they became a band. Band's make albums. I expect nothing but albums from here on out. TBK must end where it is.

[ItsSoPringles]

Gr3g3, on 09 May 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

TBK was the transition needed for the band to gel and get to the point where Billy didn't have to do everything and they became a band. Band's make albums. I expect nothing but albums from here on out. TBK must end where it is.

agreed, plus the TBK now i just imagine as its own album, if we include the TBK theme and cottonwood then we have 12 songs. Thats enough songs for a single album so im just going to look at it like that.

But as i said before, i hope even though TBK is dead that we still get the unreleased songs

[WayneArnold]

Inertia, on 09 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

TBK is not dead unless Billy confirms it. End of story.

:rofl:/> Well there you have it!

[FLSPNUT]

Here we go again, "its dead"...."no its not"...."yes it is"...."no its not" Who seriously cares. Just keep making great music Billy like you are doing. Call it "Fuk the magic dragon"

[mirrorboxer]

Who is TBK and under what authority can Billy make the call of deceased or not? Isn't that usually up to a medical examiner?

[odracir]

Who gives a damn about TBK, Oceania is getting closer and closer with each day. I hope more news to come, and maybe a new revamped smashingpumpkins.com site during the following days. Date is getting closer and still no preorders or Oceania merch from the SP shop.

[paulandgemm]

http://www.nme.com/n...-pumpkins/63526

"Smashing Pumpkins have announced full details of their long-awaited seventh studio record 'Oceania'.

The album, which was originally due last September, will now be released on June 18 and has been described as an "album within an album" as it is part of their 44-song cycle 'Teargarden By Kaleidyscope', the first songs for which were released in 2009."

http://www.rollingst...isting-20120427

"The Smashing Pumpkins will release Oceania, their seventh studio album, on June 19th. Though the record stands on its own, it was created as part of the band's ongoing 44-song work-in-progress Teargarden by Kaleidyscope, which has been released song-by-song since the end of 2009."

i could do lots more, but don't really care that much... i don't care what happens to it, as long as the band continue to make music. it just surprises me how so many are totally convinced teargarden has ended, maybe it has, but with ALL the press around Oceania stating the album is part of it then does that really make people think it isn't?? (don't get too worked up guys as i've said, i don't really care or feel strongly either way.)

[Human Sauce]

I don't care what Billy said back in April 2011; I'm not going to consider Oceania to be a part of Teargarden.

If he has already confirmed TBK to ultimately being a failed project, why would he go back to it? All signs point to the end of TBK as we knew it.

[awsmsc]

Including Oceania, we're 23 songs in, so that leaves 21 songs. It's possible SP will do 2 albums in the next few years that will total 21 songs, so TBK could consist of 10 "TBK songs" and those albums.

[misguided]

Oceania's album cover screams Tarot and the Fool's Journey. Long live TBK!

[frednirv632]

misguided, on 10 May 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Oceania's album cover screams Tarot and the Fool's Journey. Long live TBK!

I would bet that you are correct, but the opposing argument could be made.

case in point:
http://en.wikipedia....28Tarot_card%29

[I'm assuming you're being tongue-in-cheek, but i'm also a dumbass sometimes]

[RottingApples]

I don't really care either way. I just want the music/ lyrics/ vocals to be good.

[Fernando]

misguided, on 10 May 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Oceania's album cover screams Tarot and the Fool's Journey. Long live TBK!

I've said this once, and I'm saying it again: that's not a random tower, that's a lighthouse!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Finnish_Lighthouses_1909.JPG/800px-Finnish_Lighthouses_1909.JPG

Oceania, island, ocean... LIGHTHOUSE!

[frednirv632]

So explain to me how a lighthouse isn't a tower. lololol

[Fernando]

frednirv632, on 10 May 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

So explain to me how a lighthouse isn't a tower. lololol

I said it's not a RANDOM tower. A tower is any "tall structure built to take advantage of their height", a lighthouse is that, but it's designed to emit light and used as an aid to navigation for maritime pilots at sea.

So a lighthouse has another function, and it's about the sea, and that's the concept in that picture, not the tarot card.

[frednirv632]

so?

[Fernando]

So, once again, Oceania is not conected to Teargarden.

[KingBelteshazzar]

isn't "the Tower" Tarot card all about destruction, surprise, alarm and things falling apart?

of course the Tower is on fire and people are jumping out of it, in the picture.

this one on the Oceania cover just looks abandoned/empty.

[ae37jr]

Fernando, on 10 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I've said this once, and I'm saying it again: that's not a random tower, that's a lighthouse!

Oceania, island, ocean... LIGHTHOUSE!

Could it be a random Panopticon? That would explain why there is no light in the "lighthouse" and why it is not near water.

savethetiger, on 09 May 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Teargarden Era - 2009-2011. 2 EP's. 12 songs total. R.I.P.

I don't really want the current bright future to have any association to the tarot, teargarden, or any of that shit. TIME TO MOVE THE FUCK ON. I wouldn't mind seeing Lonely make it's way out as an Oceania b-side or exclusive pre-order track or something though.

One other thing I might be ok with, is if you took all 12 songs from the era, and did a Teargarden By Kaliedyscope record and threw it up for sale on digi/vinyl. I'd buy that. Then you could actually maybe even count it as an SP album. One era, 12 songs. I'm not sure why I'd want it legitimized like that to be honest, but I suppose it would be the desired closure without really wasting any more time on those songs.

1. Teargarden Theme
2. A Song for a Son
3. Astral Planes
4. Lightning Strikes
5. The Fellowship
6. A Stitch in Time
7. Tom Tom
8. Owata
9. Spangled
10. Freak USA
11. Widow Wake My Mind
12. Cottonwood Symphony

I like this idea. To take it one step further, why not make it into a box set?

-12 "Official Releases" on one disc
-One or two discs of unreleased TbK demo's
-A usb with the making of Lonely is the name
-12 Tarot trading cards with the watercolor artwork that appeared for each song
-A golden obelisk(probably not a good idea)
-maybe a live DVD or a band interview(making of TbK)

[gyang333]

ae37jr, on 10 May 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Could it be a random Panopticon? That would explain why there is no light in the "lighthouse" and why it is not near water.



I like this idea. To take it one step further, why not make it into a box set?

-12 "Official Releases" on one disc
-One or two discs of unreleased TbK demo's
-A usb with the making of Lonely is the name
-12 Tarot trading cards with the watercolor artwork that appeared for each song
-A golden obelisk(probably not a good idea)
-maybe a live DVD or a band interview(making of TbK)

Dimensions don't appear right for it to be a panopticon. Love your idea for a Teargarden release though!

[KingBelteshazzar]

i know TBK has been frustrating for a lot of people, but the concept wasn't bad. Just the execution of it.

Let the man do his work before we all start pre-judging the rest of the concept and how it'd turn out, hm?

[CoolAsIceCream]

that's not how we do things around here, belty.

[KingBelteshazzar]

yeah, i know.

i just hate to see people bash TBK over-all, because it has good potential. The execution sucked - but I'm sure Billy has written some great songs that havent been heard or have barely been heard. And has yet written new stuff. Tons of potential, but people are just defecating all over it.

Now that the execution method has changed for the better, I don't see why the project still needs to be ridiculed so.

Anyway, whatever. Oceania comes out next month, and it'll be coll. Yay.

[Feriluce]

Is Oceania really going to be released as a digipac? Or was that just speculated, I don't like digipacs unless they have two discs in them. *is weird* Guess I shouldn't really care as it is the music I want, but I am still a fan of CD packaging. So I am at least hoping for a good booklet inside...please let there be one.

[simontreal]

I think digipaks are slightly better for the nature, no ?

[chrisothoulos]

I downloaded the silversun pickups album before it was released.. then on tuesday when it came out i bought the cd.... There was really nothing to it... like a digipack...just the cd and the booklet had nothing to it.. made me question my CD buying really.

At least have a good package/booklet...with some lyrics...

[Raoul]

chrisothoulos, on 11 May 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

I downloaded the silversun pickups album before it was released.. then on tuesday when it came out i bought the cd.... There was really nothing to it... like a digipack...just the cd and the booklet had nothing to it.. made me question my CD buying really.

At least have a good package/booklet...with some lyrics...

get into vinyl and it will re-invent your reasons to want to buy music again. Most come with a high quality digital version these days so it means tyou can buy the cake, eat it and keep it - and most of all, feel good for enjoying it :)/>

[Gr3g3]

Raoul, on 11 May 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

get into vinyl and it will re-invent your reasons to want to buy music again. Most come with a high quality digital version these days so it means tyou can buy the cake, eat it and keep it - and most of all, feel good for enjoying it :)/>

Just started to collect vinyl. Much more enjoyable.

[Sophie]

ae37jr, on 10 May 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

-12 "Official Releases" on one disc

Hummm. I already have most of TBK songs on vinyl as many of us around here, and I'm not sure I would buy them twice...

Fernando, on 10 May 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I said it's not a RANDOM tower. A tower is any "tall structure built to take advantage of their height", a lighthouse is that, but it's designed to emit light and used as an aid to navigation for maritime pilots at sea.

So a lighthouse has another function, and it's about the sea, and that's the concept in that picture, not the tarot card.

hummm. I'm not even sure this is a light house. I mean I don't see any light stricto sensu.

To me it looks like a tower with a radio antenna on top of it.
As if a lonely musician was stuck inside of the tower and was tirelessly broadcasting music to a devastated world.
(Note that the door is open though)

[Lunatic]

Fernando, on 10 May 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I said it's not a RANDOM tower. A tower is any "tall structure built to take advantage of their height", a lighthouse is that, but it's designed to emit light and used as an aid to navigation for maritime pilots at sea.

So a lighthouse has another function, and it's about the sea, and that's the concept in that picture, not the tarot card.

Because things can't possibly have two meanings, right?

[Stumbling]

I'm just hoping that oceania is rated well by critics and that it outsells zeitgeist. jk, but I really don't want there to be sha la las, come ons, and (cringe) excessive ohs. Also, seeing as Teargarden is over (or at least moving in a new direction), I'd like to see this forums artwork to be updated. The whimsical fairies have to go.

[thebeatle]

KingBelteshazzar, on 10 May 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

isn't "the Tower" Tarot card all about destruction, surprise, alarm and things falling apart?

of course the Tower is on fire and people are jumping out of it, in the picture.

this one on the Oceania cover just looks abandoned/empty.

You're pretty dead on. The Tower is considered to be the "worst" tarot card. It usually represents disillusion, sudden changes, chaos, revelation/epiphany, and downfall.

However as with all tarot cards, it truly means whatever you interpret from looking at/drawing the card.

[Fernando]

Lunatic, on 11 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Because things can't possibly have two meanings, right?

Yeah, it can have X meanings, but it's really forced and sad trying to find a hidden meaning in something just to fill your frustation about the end of TbK.

[Feriluce]

Well we can obviously expect haters when Oceania comes out, but I do hope it does sell decently and get good feedback from most fans. Time will tell...

...And am I the only one who really likes the TbK artwork? lol
I think it's whimsical and I like watercolors.

[AlienCloak]

Fernando, on 10 May 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

So, once again, Oceania is not conected to Teargarden.

But... BUT.... its an album within an album!

:lick:/>

[chrisothoulos]

Raoul, on 11 May 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

get into vinyl and it will re-invent your reasons to want to buy music again. Most come with a high quality digital version these days so it means tyou can buy the cake, eat it and keep it - and most of all, feel good for enjoying it :)/>

Yeah one of these days I will start really getting into vinyl...just lazy haha

[kylekasino]

Inertia, on 09 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

TBK is not dead unless Billy confirms it. End of story.

I like this philosophy.

In the sense that Billy will never, ever, confirm that it's dead (it most definitely IS), so in this way Teargarden can live on forever until the end of time, never to be completely washed away, like tears in rain.

Much like many of Billy's other projects that he hasn't specifically confirmed are dead, but yet we all know deep down in our hearts that they are (altho granted the re-issues have maybe brought back some legitimate hope towards certain things).