[Ruby Ring]

I have been a fan since practically the beginning and I have lurked this board and every other SP board for years without posting much.

As I watched the Grammys the other night, I got to thinking. It was odd looking at the rock category; I don't recall exactly who was nominated (Coldplay, Radiohead, Bon Iver maybe, etc). The distinct point is there wasn't anyone represented in the Grammys, besides Foo Fighters and Kings of Leon, I suppose, that resembles anything close to what I might call a rock band.

Obviously rock's popularity in our culture is declining, yet it still important enough to carve a category out of Grammy night to recognize.

So here is my point: what band does Oceania compete with for best rock album of the year this year? Where are the rock bands? What albums are being released this year? The lack of other rock bands doing anything noteworthy enough or on a scale large enough to be considered for a Grammy, has created a situation, in my opinion, where a revivial of Corgan's career is like ducks on the pond. It is right there to be had. If Oceania is halfway decent and promoted the right way by a record label, I would be stunned if they aren't at the very least a Grammy nominee next year, and at the most, Grmmy winners at the beginning of a massive revival of interest in SP. Obviously I don't think winning Grammy makes a band, but imagine the level of visibility BC would have if he is even in the audience at the Grammys next year. I do believe it will happen, because there just isn't any other competition out there. It is all right there to be had, and I think BC knows it. The timing of Oceania and this chapter of SP couldn't be happening at a better time.

Discuss.

[paulandgemm]

good post / good point - i agree..

the state of music at present is pretty awful i feel, especially in the high profile public domain.

[Ruby Ring]

Another couple of things to consider - Corgan is a former Grammy nominee and winner, AND after the little Dave Grohl-a-thon the other night, I figure that the powers that be would love to bring one of Grohl's contemporaries from the 90s to stand out beside him. Again, it is all right there to be had.

[redsox]

What exactly is "rock music" considered these days? When I grew up, and turned the radio to a rock station you would hear, Metallica, Megadeath, Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana, Faith No More, Janes addiction, (granted a lot of these could just be considered grunge), and lots of other "rock" music....today when I turn on a rock station I hear bands such as Dropkick Murphys, Mumford and Sons, and others who I would not even begin to consider rock music, they might have one or 2 songs that could be considered rock, but I would argue they are other "styles" of music all together.

[Deleted User Account]

Was Zeitgeist nominated?

Nvmd, the answer is no. This is what won in 2008:
Best Rock Album
Daughtry – Daughtry
Revival – John Fogerty
Echoes, Silence, Patience & Grace – Foo Fighters
Magic – Bruce Springsteen
Sky Blue Sky – Wilco

So the Foo's winning isn't unprecedented.

Bruce Springstein has an album coming out this year, that'll be nominated for sure.

[werideatdusk]

The dynamics and moods of rock have been thoroughly cannibalized by basically every popular genre, so I wouldn't say it's gone away. But I think people are sick of the standard guitar-bass-drum sound, and with good reason given the last 15 years of dreck on 'modern rock' radio. Grohl has a lot of good will for many reasons - Nirvana's pedigree, Foo Fighters' enduring chart success, and his own personal 'dudeness'. Corgan is pretty reviled by a lot of different folks.

My personal view is, the way forward for music in general is the path that BC charted in the 90s - fuse together whatever bizarre influence you want in the name of the most powerful personal expression. I think his influence on music has been a lot larger than is recognized when you consider the overall blurring of genres in popular music. That said, audiences are not generally looking for this kind of ambitious, cathartic music. Just like mainstream films have become mere vehicles for shiny CGI visuals, mainstream recordings are more and more prized for having some catchy production trick as opposed to "journey" songs. This is true in pop music as well as the indie-world. (Quick shoutout to Sufjan Stevens' "Age of Adz" for managing to fold insane production and catchy songwriting into epic prog odysseys)

I think, truth be told, there are probably more excellent albums being made right now than ever before, but they are being made in people's bedrooms and attics all over the world and are never heard by anyone. The consequences of the collapse of the recording industry, particularly A&R, have been dire. It's worth bringing up that a lot of bands didn't make a great record til 5 years plus into their career, and most young people simply can't afford to do that anymore.

As far as OCEANIA--->
After living with the live versions of the Oceania tracks for some time and getting a decent sense of what the album is gonna be about, I think it'll be a great album that not a lot of people will care about. I hope I'm wrong.

Importantly, this will be an album that restores some sense of DIGNITY to Billy's SP project. Basically every step Billy has taken since 1996 has pushed him further and further into ridicule, and this might be the first step back in the right direction as far as the public eye goes. I for one, don't give a damn, he's gonna keep going and making music no matter what people say and all of us fans should be grateful for his fighting spirit!

[Deleted User Account]

Green Day have an album scheduled for this year. They're Grammy winners. MGMT. Tool.

RIP Grammy chances.

Aerosmith.

[beep beep]

Bruce Americasteen

[Human Sauce]

Giving/receiving awards for art is a ridiculous concept. Could care less if Oceania gets nominated or wins a Grammy.

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

Three questions come to my mind when I think about The Pumpkins future:

Does billy bring his A-game with Oceania? All signs seem to point to yes.

Can they get people to care about Smashing Pumpkins again? I've found that the general public these days are much more likely to be sold on a product if it has a nice story behind it. As werideatdusk pointed out above, Dave Grohl has a very inspiring story behind him with The Foo Fighters. The story of Dave Grohl and The Foo fighters has been a consistently positive one and likely to strike a chord with more people who will be more receptive to their work as a whole. Now, contrast that with the poor image The Pumpkins have slowly been painted with as the mists of time obscure the eyes of many a modern music journalist. As much as Billy wants his success to be solely about the quality of his music, I believe in this day and age he will have to swallow his pride and realize that if he wants to succeed like he once did in this climate of consumer weariness he will have to "sell out" again and go out of his way to change the negative narrative currently associated with himself and the band. I would bet this is the reason why the record label execs were so eager for him to change the name of the band. He could leave the negative baggage of the band behind to a degree and start a new, perhaps more palatable story to sell to the public that would encourage them to care about his work again, and make it "relevant".

Even if the songs are good is the cultural soil fertile enough that the songs will connect with enough people in a meaningful way? Barring the weird cultural phenomena I described above I think now is a great time to release an album with themes of loneliness like Oceania. I definitely think this a theme that can connect in a meaningful and relevant way to many people, considering the physical isolation we have experienced as we embrace digital communication.

[Deleted User Account]

The truth is we don't know much about Oceania. Billy talks a big game.

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

The songs have already been recorded. We've heard half of them already. I wouldn't qualify Oceania as a "big mystery" at this point. http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/board_new/public/style_emoticons/default/peoples.gif

[Deleted User Account]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 15 February 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

The songs have already been recorded. We've heard half of them already. I wouldn't qualify Oceania as a "big mystery" at this point. http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/board_new/public/style_emoticons/default/peoples.gif

We've heard just under half, and the production is a big mystery. Lets not forget he prefaced TGBK by saying he knew he had a tendency to produce songs in such a way that limited their appeal, and was going to remedy that... or that Zeitgeist was going to melt people's faces off... That the songs have already been recorded means absolutely jack shit. How would that matter? For all we know they've gone back and revised, with Mikey being asked to go to Chicago to demo in January.

[Dusty]

I think it will probably be nominated, unless Green Day or U2 (both of whom have spoken of albums, but neither of which has started to really bring it into the public eye) or some other heavy hitter puts an album out. Smashing Pumpkins have enough of a legacy and enough name cache that an ambitious album could get them in. I don't think they'll win though. Then again, I'm a little suprised Radiohead didn't win. Not sure what this Foo Fighters obssession over at the Grammy's is.

So long as Oceania doesn't get slammed for no reason like Zeitgeist...

[gyang333]

Dusty, on 15 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I think it will probably be nominated, unless Green Day or U2 (both of whom have spoken of albums, but neither of which has started to really bring it into the public eye) or some other heavy hitter puts an album out. Smashing Pumpkins have enough of a legacy and enough name cache that an ambitious album could get them in. I don't think they'll win though. Then again, I'm a little suprised Radiohead didn't win. Not sure what this Foo Fighters obssession over at the Grammy's is.

So long as Oceania doesn't get slammed for no reason like Zeitgeist...

Does RHCP's I'm With You count for next year's grammy? I don't believe they were nominated this year correct?

[awsmsc]

Yeah, there's a huge dearth of good music right now, especially in rock genre.

Also, Oceania is going to get a ton of press because it will be BC's "return to form". In much the same way Eminem got a lot of press with his latest album because he "soared above his lowered expectations".

[chrisothoulos]

gyang333, on 15 February 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Does RHCP's I'm With You count for next year's grammy? I don't believe they were nominated this year correct?

I'm with you was nominated for best rock album...That was the only category for them

[Deleted User Account]

awsmsc, on 15 February 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Also, Oceania is going to get a ton of press because it will be BC's "return to form". In much the same way Eminem got a lot of press with his latest album because he "soared above his lowered expectations".

??? because that's the narrative Billy is selling?

[awsmsc]

He's already said it's his best stuff since 1995, but even if he didn't, I think most critics will say so.

[Parksey]

just release the fucking album already

[LostSoul]

Dusty, on 15 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

So long as Oceania doesn't get slammed for no reason like Zeitgeist...

Zeitgeist got slammed for several reasons.

-Shit production job.
-Mixed loud as fuck.
-The album itself was an extremely odd mix of dark, heavy, obscure songs and half-hearted attempts at radio hits. When the public heard that the Pumpkins were 'reforming', they hoped to hear the likes of '1979', or 'Disarm'. 'Bullet', or 'Today'. They were not expecting to hear a song as heavy & brooding as 'United States' or '7 Shades'.
-Billy's vocals were dry & lifeless, with plenty of instances where Billy's robot voice was OVERDUBBED on top of his own voice.
-No urgency or emotional resonance to the lyrics (save for, arguably, 'Stellar', 'That's The Way' and 'Zeitgeist
...two of which were bonus tracks).
-Multiple version release for an album that already was poorly received. Great call. Fans will love you for this.

I like some of Zeitgeist, and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is all factual. You cannot deny that this album was a severe departure from what the Pumpkins were renowned for.

Now, with what I hear from the live cuts, Oceania very well seems to be on the right track. Production could make that a reality, or it could slap it down a few notches. All I will say is that the fan reception to the new songs at my show were exceedingly good. Most on here seem to enjoy them, as well.

The only issue with your hope of them winning a Grammy is this...they made a 'reunion' album in 2007 that flopped commercially. Sure, it went gold, but it had no staying power. Then they went away for all of a year before releasing Teargarden. The one-song-at-a-time method really killed the reception the songs received. While some songs were, in my opinon, horrible, some really weren't. Yet they got the shaft anyway because people waited for months and months only to receive...."THIS!?" And then criticisms rose, and were focused on every little portion of that one song. The Pumpkins appeared on Leno, and that performance was horrendously embarrassing. Notice you CAN'T even find the video for it online anymore? I'll bet anything Billy saw how bad it was & tried his best to get it removed.

The only positive press the band has gotten is the reaction to the past two tours, especially this one. Most reviews I've seen, fan & critic, were largely positive and ecstatic to share the fact that the band has 'an energy' again. Still, tours alone will not get this band a Grammy. Billy shouldn't expect one, and neither should we. There is a very small chance that if Oceania has the right production, the right vibe, and the strength of material that Billy boasts, then it could get a nomination. Just don't bet on it.

And either way, I could care less. In my eyes, the band is better now than it was in 2007 or 2008, which is fine by me. Do they match the old band? Not just yet, but you never know. Oceania very well could be just the ticket to make it so...

[paulandgemm]

ArticulateEric, on 15 February 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Green Day have an album scheduled for this year. They're Grammy winners. MGMT. Tool.

RIP Grammy chances.

Aerosmith.

urghh.. green day really are what mainstream pop , sorry rock, has became - aweful, truely aweful.

same with foo fighters - it has that horrible watered down element to it that just stinks of this could be good, but we wanna sell records! hope Billy never follows that path, not that i need t worry.

radiohead have probably been the best at being financilly successful but constantly pushing boundries.

as far as the pumpkins are concerned, as long as i like it, i couldn't give a shit..

ArticulateEric, on 15 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

The truth is we don't know much about Oceania. Billy talks a big game.

what about the new tracks aired on the tour?

the reaction to those in the community and at the shows was immense..

[nasalscarecrow]

I think there is plenty of decent music around nowadays, even if it isn't part of some obvious, thriving, and relevant scene like the "alternative rock" of the '80s and '90s. As such, not being nominated for a Grammy isn't that big a deal. There are several albums I'm eagerly anticipating this year, including Oceania, and I doubt any of them will be nominated. All could be great though.

[dudehitscar]

my thoughts.. Grammy's don't mean shit for alternative rock fans really. How many albums in your top 20 list have won a grammy? think about it.

[LostSoul]

dudehitscar, on 16 February 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

my thoughts.. Grammy's don't mean shit for alternative rock fans really. How many albums in your top 20 list have won a grammy? think about it.

As much as I hate Dave Grohl, I'm gonna quote him. In the latest Rolling Stone I've bought, he said this, and I very much agree with him:

"Q: What do you think of all the nineties nostalgia lately?

A: I don't really see anything that I consider Nineties nostalgia. Loud-ass guitars and drummers who trash their kits--when did that ever go away? I love that a band like Soundgarden can still fucking slay, but I wouldn't consider it nostalgic. It's not like guitars and drums and people who make honest records died off and are being resurrected in some Jurassic Park laboratory. That shit still exists. It's just suffocating under a pile of trash."

That said, I really enjoyed "Wasting Light". Best record of theirs since "The Colour & The Shape." Oh, I'm sorry. Only GOOD record since then. I still don't get what people loved about "Echoes..." Aside from Let It Die, I found nothing thrilling enough to warrant a Grammy, but then...this IS America. :p/>

[monkeysnot]

paulandgemm, on 15 February 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

good post / good point - i agree..

the state of music at present is pretty awful i feel, especially in the high profile public domain.

Yes, in the high profile public domain, sure, but there is so much good music out there it's crazy. You sometimes have to work a little to find it, though.

werideatdusk, on 15 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I think, truth be told, there are probably more excellent albums being made right now than ever before, but they are being made in people's bedrooms and attics all over the world and are never heard by anyone.

Great comment here. This is true.

paulandgemm, on 16 February 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

radiohead have probably been the best at being financilly successful but constantly pushing boundries.

In my opinion, Radiohead is the most talented CURRENT band out there. They are incredibly creative and no one does anything like them. Some try and they can't come close.

I sure hope Oceania blows everyone's mind off their face. The live stuff we've heard so far blows my mind, so like others have said, let's hope the production is better than it has been the last few years.

[manuglass]

LostSoul, on 16 February 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The only positive press the band has gotten is the reaction to the past two tours, especially this one. Most reviews I've seen, fan & critic, were largely positive and ecstatic to share the fact that the band has 'an energy' again. Still, tours alone will not get this band a Grammy. Billy shouldn't expect one, and neither should we. There is a very small chance that if Oceania has the right production, the right vibe, and the strength of material that Billy boasts, then it could get a nomination. Just don't bet on it.

Probably most of you have heard Billy say that the reactions to the last European tour were not as good as in the USA, claiming that in Europe they had to win the audience back (which they did in the USA with the previous tour). I don't know about other European cities, but the reviews of the concert they did in Madrid were absolutely horrible. One of the most read newspapers even said that being sick was not an excuse! (BC had food poisoning).

[LostSoul]

Yeah, the European tours didn't do as well. The USA loved it, but for some reason Europeans disliked the set and I've even read one article where they said the band had no energy (think it was Sweden).

Dunno. All I know is over here, they gained some respect back after the disasters of 2008.

[paulandgemm]

LostSoul, on 16 February 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yeah, the European tours didn't do as well. The USA loved it, but for some reason Europeans disliked the set and I've even read one article where they said the band had no energy (think it was Sweden).

Dunno. All I know is over here, they gained some respect back after the disasters of 2008.

UK dates had some great reviews, and the Newcastle show attended was one of the best atmospheres at a pumpkins show (even if 1 solitary dickhead started putting the two fingers up a Billy in Owata, he was the minority.)

Certainly no people walking out like happened at every Mellon Collie show in '96 i attended over here!

[ZivotSon]

The Grammy's exist for 3 main reasons: (1) a promotional tool by the music industry to sell its products; (2) an entertainment show to attract tv viewers; and (3) an excuse for celebrities to party, get attention and pretend that their largely crap music has some cultural significance.

[Sophie]

LostSoul, on 16 February 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yeah, the European tours didn't do as well. The USA loved it, but for some reason Europeans disliked the set and I've even read one article where they said the band had no energy (think it was Sweden).

Dunno. All I know is over here, they gained some respect back after the disasters of 2008.

Nah, do not trust eveything you read on the net (especially from the french medias, they are known for hating everything!).

The audience really enjoyed the shows in its large majority. Of course there were the german cancellations and the swedish show that apparently went wrong, but believe me the concerts I attended were great and the crowd really appreciated them (you could also tell by the line at the store in the end ;)/> lots of people were queueing to buy T-shirts and posters). I attended 2 shows and I met people from this board -hi guys!- who have attended 5 to 6 shows and they haven't been disappointed at all. Some might have liked a little bit more of bantering but that's pretty much it. (Yet are we pumpkinheads the best judges? :scatch:/>)

http://i42.tinypic.com/ouvzae.jpg

PS: How could people not like the dream setlist of this tour ??

[nasalscarecrow]

Yeah, wouldn't trust what you hear on the Net. I saw them in Manchester. Band was full of energy, setlist was excellent (as I'm sure you know from that tour), and the crowd loved it. It was a great show all round. Even Billy was joking with the crowd at the end. Reviews I read were all "band were uninspired, acted bored, crowd said it was the worst gig ever" etc. I think a lot of critics just love to pick on them, and just outright say incorrect things about the current iteration of the band. Bollocks really, wouldn't surprise me if other European dates were just the same.

Hell, I'd even say the same about 2008, though I understand why people got sick of Corgan's rants on the 20th anniversary tour.

[Deleted User Account]

nasalscarecrow, on 16 February 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Yeah, wouldn't trust what you hear on the Net. I saw them in Manchester. Band....

LOL

[nasalscarecrow]

:rolleyes:/>

[snail33]

LostSoul, on 16 February 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Zeitgeist got slammed for several reasons.

-Shit production job.
-Mixed loud as fuck.
-The album itself was an extremely odd mix of dark, heavy, obscure songs and half-hearted attempts at radio hits. When the public heard that the Pumpkins were 'reforming', they hoped to hear the likes of '1979', or 'Disarm'. 'Bullet', or 'Today'. They were not expecting to hear a song as heavy & brooding as 'United States' or '7 Shades'.
-Billy's vocals were dry & lifeless, with plenty of instances where Billy's robot voice was OVERDUBBED on top of his own voice.
-No urgency or emotional resonance to the lyrics (save for, arguably, 'Stellar', 'That's The Way' and 'Zeitgeist
...two of which were bonus tracks).
-Multiple version release for an album that already was poorly received. Great call. Fans will love you for this.

you forgot "bad songs."

[Deleted User Account]

GodDAMNIT-- DONT get me started on That's The Way again, snail.

[frosty]

i like That's The Way and don't understand other people's hate for it.
the lyrics are really good, too.

i feel a coming age now
i feel a dawn in me
a sudden sun keeps rising on my belief in you :happy:/>

[Ruby Ring]

That's the Way was the only memorable song on Zeitgeist.

[LostSoul]

snail, shut up. You piss ant. Woah, didn't mean to do that. :o/>

The songs are fine structurally. Look anyone straight in the eye and tell them that Jimmy's drumming wasn't excellent on that record. They'll laugh your ass out of the internet, and you'll land with a crash. The production, and Billy's vocal style ruin it. But oh em gee...I FORGOT. Your opinion is King Opinion. Go listen to your Missy Elliott and can it. :lol:/>

[frosty]

i also like the loud guitar solo towards the end. i think it's really pretty.

[killer_in_me]

Sophie, on 16 February 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Nah, do not trust eveything you read on the net (especially from the french medias, they are known for hating everything!).

The audience really enjoyed the shows in its large majority. Of course there were the german cancellations and the swedish show that apparently went wrong, but believe me the concerts I attended were great and the crowd really appreciated them (you could also tell by the line at the store in the end ;)/> lots of people were queueing to buy T-shirts and posters). I attended 2 shows and I met people from this board -hi guys!- who have attended 5 to 6 shows and they haven't been disappointed at all. Some might have liked a little bit more of bantering but that's pretty much it. (Yet are we pumpkinheads the best judges? :scatch:/>)

http://i42.tinypic.com/ouvzae.jpg

PS: How could people not like the dream setlist of this tour ??

The London shows were also very well received. I remember thinking the crowd was a lot more responsive than your average London crowd, which are often very subdued these days, "like playing to a staring" to quote Billy in If All Goes Wrong.

No in London we had an awesome show and I don't think anyone seemed let down or disappointed after, apart from maybe the guy who waited outside the venue with me after the show, desperate to see the band :p/>

[FLSPNUT]

ArticulateEric, on 16 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

GodDAMNIT-- DONT get me started on That's The Way again, snail.

Yes, please don't get him started. We will have to sit thru another disection of every cord, riff, count, tremolo, mix, syncopated accents, measures, chord structure, progression and then compare it to Gish and SD.

[frednirv632]

FLSPNUT, on 17 February 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yes, please don't get him started. We will have to sit thru another disection of every cord, riff, count, tremolo, mix, syncopated accents, measures, chord structure, progression and then compare it to Gish and SD.

nah, bro. TTW is machina, machina, and more machina.

[cleric]

Human Sauce, on 15 February 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Giving/receiving awards for art is a ridiculous concept. Could care less if Oceania gets nominated or wins a Grammy.