[LostSoul]

Well? I know we all have our favorites, and our 'beloved' songs that got shafted, or butchered in-studio. Which are yours? The songs that you personally feel represented Billy & the band so well, yet it seems that perhaps even BC himself couldn't see that?

Here are mine, and why:

1. A Song For A Son While I enjoy the studio cut, it had so much more potential. The 2008 version was immaculate, and beautiful. Like a Adore/Machina hybrid doused in classical fare. And then he turned it into a Led-Zep tribute song with lifeless vocals. Mind you, it still craps all over the rest of Teargarden for me, but it could have been an amazing song. RIP. :cry:/>

2. Lonely Is The Name This song is fairly simple in structure, and mildly repetitive (in a good way for once). What makes this song is the sound of the guitar, and the overall vibe of it. It has a feel-good vibe that reminds me of summer for some reason, and makes me feel that nothing is definite. Things can change, and become better over time. Shame he said it wasn't good enough for Oceania, because I'm pretty sure most feel differently.

3. Circular Change The sweetest number he has penned since the reformation (that we've heard), and it remains unreleased. I've seen many attest to the "true Pumpkins" magic this song possesses, and I can't help but agree.

4. The March Hare The single trippiest song he's written since the Gish era. Was slated to be recorded before Jimmy left, as stated by the man himself in 2008. The lyrics obscure, forboding, and borderline insane. Yet somehow, this live cut sought to be playful & welcoming all the same, even as the lyrics seemingly suggest a man losing his mind in the darkest of ways. Would have been a favorite of mine.

5. Tom Tom It went from a dark and melancholic song with strained vocals to a mildly shoe gaze song with very nice guitar effects, and a build-up worthy of Billy Corgan, and a new ending that seemed to complete the song. The studio cut we received a mere month or so after this version was debuted live was completely different. A song in the same vein, yet flattened with a rolling pin and made to stand along side other bore-fests on Dad-rock radio.

6. As Rome Burns While I completely understand why he cut this song from TbK altogether, I truly hope he has a demo or completed version stored up somewhere. Although there is close to no emotional resonance in the lyrics, they are absolutely scathing. The lyrics are not deep, they are not complex, but they stir the blood. Much like BC in his heyday. You can call "false angst" in the vocals all you want, but this song displayed a rage in 2008 that we long thought was gone from Billy system. Many applauded the song for its intensity, sheer heaviness without sounding too derivative of Zeitgeist or previous works. The solo, the guitars, the drums, the vocals. Pure energy. When it came back in 2010, it was slower and arguably not as heavy, with less prominent drums and Billy shortening syllables again. "As Rome BURR! As Rome BURR!" Now it lies in his coffin of lost gems.

And of course, a good handful of the Residency songs would make this list, but I have to go to work and haven't the energy to type more.

What about everyone else? Which tracks do you wish were released, or wish made it through the studio transition a bit better?

(que Bimbly citing the new Quasar as being inferior to the old, muffled soundcheck version :lol:/>)

[Inertia]

Nevermind, you said 2007-2011 era. Good thing I edited this post in time.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

Definitely agree on Lonely and Tom Tom. I'd like to throw in Caroline, Yes. It was pretty enough, and with a bare-bones studio treatment (hell, even a demo), I think it would have stood a chance at being one of the best TbK releases.

Freak could have been better. I would have liked it more if he kept the original arrangement with acoustic guitars, keyboards and violin.

However, I'm glad he ditched As Rome Burns. Boring, tuneless neanderthal rawk in my opinion.

[oryann]

Spangled.

Although I DO enjoy the studio cut, man this song could have been wonderful. When he played it live - with a guitar playing the intro instead of a midi-esque string instrument, man it just could've been so much better.. The lyrics and the way he sings it, it's a great love song. But obviously it received lackluster studio treatment..

I'm going to have to agree on Tom Tom as well. It's one of my favorite studio cuts from TBK, but it still just could've been sooo much better.

I also agree with Freak, and how they should have kept the acoustic arrangement....

And on As Rome Burns - I never really loved the song, as stated, it was sort of 'neanderthal rawk,'however, I would have loved to see a studio cut, just to see how BC pulled it off. I think maybe it wouldn't have sounded as rushed and tuneless as it did live. I'd also just love to see if he screamed his ass off in a studio track. That would make my day.

[lemonscure]

TwoHeadedBoy, on 18 February 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Definitely agree on Lonely and Tom Tom. I'd like to throw in Caroline, Yes. It was pretty enough, and with a bare-bones studio treatment (hell, even a demo), I think it would have stood a chance at being one of the best TbK releases.

Freak could have been better. I would have liked it more if he kept the original arrangement with acoustic guitars, keyboards and violin.

However, I'm glad he ditched As Rome Burns. Boring, tuneless neanderthal rawk in my opinion.

Agree with almost everything, especially on 'Caroline Yes'. That song and 'Circular Change' are good songs. I wrote almost, because I love 'As Rome Burns'. And while I know the version of 'Freak' that you mentioned, but the original arrangement is this

[TwoHeadedBoy]

Ah, my mistake. Here's my preferred version:

[RottingApples]

Oh God, most songs that haven't been given a proper release were the superior songs to those that were released. There are so many missed opportunities.

2007:

Gossamer - while a place on Zeitgeist would have been preferred, a standalone release sometime after the Residencies would have cemented this song in the catalogue as one of the all-time greatest Pumpkins tracks. I honestly think a soundboard (ala Rock On) would have sufficed well enough without all the crowd noise.

Zeitgeist as a whole - we all know the arguments. Had it been recorded to sound more live, with better vocal performances, better lyrics, and maybe a few better song choices....

Question Mark - My favorite of the Residency material, and truly a tragic lost opportunity. Could easily have been a catchy, trippy single.

Orpheus Descending - Still haven't heard a full take, but just from the piano clips alone on the If All Goes Wrong DVD, it really could've been something beautiful. Always reminded me of the saddest MCIS material.

Most other Residency Material - while there's a few tracks I don't much care for (Peace and Love, I'm Doing the Best I Can), and while the above are particular favorites of mine, most of the other 10 or so Residency tracks were truly moving, well-written songs (in stark contrast to the songs as of late). Even if they hadn't made a proper studio album out of it, it would have been great to have gotten some kind of soundtrack of demos with the DVD, or even doing them all as part of that "Off the Fillmore Floor" stuff. Really missed the mark letting those songs go.

American Gothic EP - really should have been combined with the Residency material with a full band arrangement. The recordings are nice, but the 20th Ann. versions of 99 Floors and Rose March show just how great these songs truly could have been.


2008:

A Song for a Son - (see Lost Soul's reasoning)

Owata - suffered much the same outcome as Song for a Son. The Chris Issak performance (and ultimately, the 20th Ann. arrangements as a whole) were some of the best artistic moments of Corgan's career. An album of those tracks, mixed with a few of the Residency material would have arguably been the greatest thing he had done since Mellon Collie. I strongly believe that.

As Rome Burns - (also, see Lost Soul's reasoning)

The March Hare - (again, Lost Soul, you hit the nail on the head) While the band had done things a bit dark on Zeitgeist, these songs were sounding even darker, and in a much more organic, natural kind of way. Having the horns, keys, and strings present really would have made this a true successor to MCIS.

GLOW - Such an awesome riff, such cringeworthy lyrics...


2009-2011:

Emerald Green, West Coast, Caroline Yes - fantastic tracks. Had they just recorded all these songs with the live lineup it would have been great. Hell, they could have put it out as a Spirits in the Sky album and it wouldn't have made a difference. The songs were great, and worked as they were performed. Then half get dropped and the other half get shitty, overblown production and instrumentation. Continuing the trend since Machina that live has sounded better than the studio.

Tom Tom - (see Lost Soul)

When the Cocks Crow - I could never understand why nobody liked this one. Everyone was pissing themselves over Make it Happen and Tom Tom, but WTCC had such a dark, bluesy vibe to it and really great, cryptic lyrics. This one definitely could have been great.

Pretty much everything that did get released on Teargarden (esp. Widow, Astral Planes, Fellowship) could have been much better with better production.

[awsmsc]

most

[ItsSoPringles]

if thats the way had vocals like it did in this

http://thepumpkins.n...rlin-secret-gig

[Dusty]

I like the recorded Fellowship, but the Spirits in the Sky version with the violin and lound, lound drums had such great energy...I think that would have been my preffered version, although I think the recorded version has more mass appeal.

Definatly loved horns on Owata. Again, I really like the new Owata, I actually think it's pretty great. I just think he very successfully achieved a different vibe than the original instrumentation had, which is fine. But I really liked that old vibe.

On the front of unreleased songs. 99 Floors deserves to be released. That song is one of my favorites. The March Hare, As Rome Burns (which I still think will come out), Caroline Yes, Circular Change, and Gossamer all deserve studio treatment. Really, I hate to see any unreleased songs. I enjoy all of them on some level.

Not putting Stellar on Zeitgeist. If the standard version had Stellar, I think reviews would have been much better, just because not every song would have been balls out rock.



I will tell you that studio Tom Tom and Son For A Son are much more interesting to me than the live versions. I think the issue is just mixing on the studio Song For A Son (I lik my guitars LOUD. Same issue with the drums). The organs and solo here are much more interesting than the strumming of the live version.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

I really think Billy should have continued to develop Mama. It was such a nice little tune, and while it never truly felt finished, I have a feeling it could have ended up as one of his best softer songs if he kept working on it.

[RottingApples]

I think what I find most frustrating is summed up as follows:

Released: "C'mon let's go, beyond the great unknown."

Unreleased: "What is this violent air between us, what is the question posed?"

Released: "Everybody gather, warm your soul."


The fact that he went downhill so far with the 1st, drastically improved with the second, and then stunk it all up again with the third, I have a hard time understanding how he can write something so terrible, then write something so great, and follow it with something so terrible again. And then only release the two terrible songs.

[werideatdusk]

Mostly wish "99 Floors", "Gossamer", and "The March Hare" had been given a studio treatment.

I look forward to hearing the original mixes of "Zeitgeist" though I think the songs are pretty good. People just need to accept that album is something of an SP outlier and take it for what it is. I even disagree that "Stellar" should have been on the album, it would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Same with LMGTWTY being left off Adore. Great songs, mind you.

I like the studio TBK tracks, though I still prefer the Chris Isaak "Owata" to the studio version. But I don't dislike the new one. And I think he picked pretty well which songs were good enough to be developed, out of the Spirits in the Sky/Backwards Clock Society era.

Nitpicking, but I'm upset that only 4 of the 10 TBK tracks were mass-released on vinyl.

[sunilinus]

Definately 'widow wake my mind'. I know there is a cool song just waiting to burst out but not in the released version we got. I'm a fan of 95% of the new pumpkins, even tracks many don't like (tom tom, freak, astral planes,glow, etc.) but I just can't get behind 'widow'. Maybe its the vocal ad libs or the drawn out key part, I dunno. I feel if they went heavier with it and maybe had the verses more staccato style it could've been more exciting but alas it is not. The only teargarden track I just can't not skip. Bummer.

[Arachnea]

A lot of the Zeitgeist songs. The production and vocals need work and some of the songs could use some sprucing up (musically), and some of those b-sides should have made the album to create another dynamic rather than the nu-metal album we received. That is what I missed most from them on that album. I think one of the band's strong points was always the ability to go from emotion to emotion, hard to soft, etc., and that was not present on the album. I did not buy the whole concept they were trying to push, that political aspect mixed with the personal turmoil of being lonely. It felt very cold and disconnected.

[Arachnea]

I forgot to mention the chorus of Billy's. I hated that. Roy Thomas Baker, as great as he was for Queen, does not work well with Billy and SP.

[Deleted User Account]

Lonely Is The Name: would have ranked alongside the best of the post-reunion tracks. Still does, but as it's live only, it basically doesn't exist. His vocals were never great on the live tracks, either. Sweet melody though.

Emerald Green: the closest Billy has come to representing the old Pumpkins sound in a new song. Reminds me of an updated Gish.

Stellar: beautiful instrumentally, subpar to bad melody.

Widow Wake My Mind: played like the Leno show version, sans Mormons (no religious intolerance). If this had been the dreamy Zeppelin-esque hybrid 2:30 pop song it could have been, it wouldn't get near as much hate. Billy had said people didn't like this song because it was too simple, when to my mind, it's cause it's a simple song dragged out 3+ minutes past its expiry.

Sound of Silence: it sounds like a Mellon Collie rocker fused with Billy's "new" love of prog. It really has no connection to the original except in its lyrics, so as far as I'm concerned he should have written new lyrics for it and paraded it out as an original. Puts songs like Superchrist and Quasar to shame. Heavy and exciting but not stoopid.

Signal To Noise: could have been a single on Zeitgeist, and one of its best tracks. Sometimes I just shake my head.

99 Floors: great song... but the mix on If All Goes Wrong is brutal. The vocals actually hurt my ears. But stylistically it sounds like an extension of what he was doing in the early 90's- not a retread, a progression.

Mama: great song lost on a release nobody really knows.

Caroline Yes: : very pretty.

West Coast: not really much of a Pumpkins song... but a really nice song none the less. I wouldn't have minded him tackling this song on EP1.

[Dusty]

One thing I don't really get is the hate for G.L.O.W. That's one badass song right there. Sure, it's not an art track, but it's one fun rocker. "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon, can you feel it?" isn't really worse than "Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage" is it?

[LostSoul]

Ask yourself that one more time.

And then you can come on and feel our love as we (Come On) Let's Go!

[Arachnea]

ArticulateEric, on 21 February 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Lonely Is The Name: would have ranked alongside the best of the post-reunion tracks. Still does, but as it's live only, it basically doesn't exist. His vocals were never great on the live tracks, either. Sweet melody though.

Emerald Green: the closest Billy has come to representing the old Pumpkins sound in a new song. Reminds me of an updated Gish.

Stellar: beautiful instrumentally, subpar to bad melody.

Signal To Noise: could have been a single on Zeitgeist, and one of its best tracks. Sometimes I just shake my head.

Mama: great song lost on a release nobody really knows.

Caroline Yes: : very pretty.

Yes to all of those. Signal to Noise is a great track with good lyrics. Did Billy even record a version of this or did he just pass it on to Matt? Stellar would have been a standout softer track on Zeitgeist if it was tweaked. So many missed opportunities for that album. It may be another instance of Billy being too stubborn and committed to a concept rather than letting things come out organically. Those songs sound more "real" and where he was at emotionally and musically than what ended up on Zeitgeist. Mama is another underrated gem that is simple, elegant, and lyrically pretty and melancholy. It deserved a proper recording and release.

[LostSoul]

Arachnea, on 21 February 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Yes to all of those. Signal to Noise is a great track with good lyrics. Did Billy even record a version of this or did he just pass it on to Matt?

If I remember right, he addressed this on the Facebook Q&A. Something like, "A rough SP demo might exist, but you'd have to bother Matt Walker for that."

[Arachnea]

Great. I hope they end up releasing it through the SPRC, because I doubt we are going to get a Zeitgeist reissue.

[LostSoul]

Yeah, it might be better off being a rough demo, too. He seems to have done better with those in-studio than the final versions since the reformation.

It isn't 2007-2011, but I do have to name-drop "Lost In The Woods". Such a beautiful song, even as a demo. Why he gave that to Taproot, I'll never know.

[RottingApples]

LostSoul, on 22 February 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

It isn't 2007-2011, but I do have to name-drop "Lost In The Woods". Such a beautiful song, even as a demo. Why he gave that to Taproot, I'll never know.

:thumbsup:/> One of my favorite all time Corgan pieces. Here's hoping we might get a BC demo of that someday... (In better quality than that live thing we've got).

This post has been edited by RottingApples: 24 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

[dustinberg]

Make It Happen. Really feel like this song could be one that could get big and bring back some old fans as well as new ones.

[United States]

The Trip!!!!!
When The Cocks Crow
As Rome Burns!!
March Hare
Gossamer
Lonely Is The Name

A couple more from spirits in the sky show

[ItsSoPringles]

dustinberg, on 24 February 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Make It Happen. Really feel like this song could be one that could get big and bring back some old fans as well as new ones.

indeed, its a shame they never released that, i can listen to the live performance of it over and over again, i love it so much

[Deleted User Account]

dustinberg, on 24 February 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Make It Happen. Really feel like this song could be one that could get big and bring back some old fans as well as new ones.

Not a chance. I like it too, though.

[kylekasino]

LostSoul, on 18 February 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

1. A Song For A Son While I enjoy the studio cut, it had so much more potential. The 2008 version was immaculate, and beautiful. Like a Adore/Machina hybrid doused in classical fare. And then he turned it into a Led-Zep tribute song with lifeless vocals. Mind you, it still craps all over the rest of Teargarden for me, but it could have been an amazing song. RIP. :cry:/>

2. Lonely Is The Name This song is fairly simple in structure, and mildly repetitive (in a good way for once). What makes this song is the sound of the guitar, and the overall vibe of it. It has a feel-good vibe that reminds me of summer for some reason, and makes me feel that nothing is definite. Things can change, and become better over time. Shame he said it wasn't good enough for Oceania, because I'm pretty sure most feel differently.

5. Tom Tom It went from a dark and melancholic song with strained vocals to a mildly shoe gaze song with very nice guitar effects, and a build-up worthy of Billy Corgan, and a new ending that seemed to complete the song. The studio cut we received a mere month or so after this version was debuted live was completely different. A song in the same vein, yet flattened with a rolling pin and made to stand along side other bore-fests on Dad-rock radio.

6. As Rome Burns While I completely understand why he cut this song from TbK altogether, I truly hope he has a demo or completed version stored up somewhere. Although there is close to no emotional resonance in the lyrics, they are absolutely scathing. The lyrics are not deep, they are not complex, but they stir the blood. Much like BC in his heyday. You can call "false angst" in the vocals all you want, but this song displayed a rage in 2008 that we long thought was gone from Billy system. Many applauded the song for its intensity, sheer heaviness without sounding too derivative of Zeitgeist or previous works. The solo, the guitars, the drums, the vocals. Pure energy. When it came back in 2010, it was slower and arguably not as heavy, with less prominent drums and Billy shortening syllables again. "As Rome BURR! As Rome BURR!" Now it lies in his coffin of lost gems.

Great thread. Fully agree on the 4 mentioned above. Like hardcore agree. I thought March Hare was a throwaway with some potential, although I liked the Jimmy's bombastic drumming on it live. As far as Circular Change, it was decent but I never felt it was as good as some of the other SitS tracks.

The Trip should have been done in studio with Navarro as a single, with the b-side of that single being their cover of Long Haired Lady. I still maintain that the most incredibly epic thing BC has done since Gossamer.

When The Cock Crows. Of course. As mentioned had a great, dark, bluesy vibe. Total missed opportunity there.

[themadcaplaughs]

United States stands out as number one for me...absolutely killer live in every show since 2007, but a completely neutered version on Zeitgeist.

Quote

I really think Billy should have continued to develop Mama. It was such a nice little tune, and while it never truly felt finished, I have a feeling it could have ended up as one of his best softer songs if he kept working on it.

Outside of "The Rose March" which got a release, "Mama" and "No Surrender" are the only two residency songs I loved.

[RottingApples]

themadcaplaughs, on 25 February 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Outside of "The Rose March" which got a release, "Mama" and "No Surrender" are the only two residency songs I loved.

My favorite will always be this, hands down:

[RottingApples]

In my mind, this is how it should have happened:

New Pumpkins Double Album
Independent Release
Recorded live in studio late 2008 (just before and just after 20th Ann. Tour)
Released: Spring 2009
All songs have full, fleshed out arrangements (ala Chris Isaak performance)
All additional instruments (horns, keys, strings, etc.) included:

1. Question Mark
2. POX
3. Owata
4. If Only in a Dream
5. GLOW
6. Orpheus Descending
7. Peace + Love
8. Psalm 131 (Squander)
9. Promise Me
10. Again, Again, Again
11. Gossamer
12. A Song for a Son

1. Roctopus
2. As Rome Burns
3. Mama
4. The Rose March
5. If All Goes Wrong
6. Superchrist
7. 99 Floors
8. Corsage in Flames
9. No Surrender
10. The Leaving Lament
11. Sunkissed
12. The March Hare

B-sides:
I'm Doing the Best I Can
I Don't Mind
Communion

This post has been edited by RottingApples: 25 February 2012 - 10:44 PM

[frednirv632]

^^^
want NEED

[LostSoul]

:jackyl:/>

Me likey!

[RottingApples]

Then, think about this: had Jimmy not left, they immediately could have gone and recorded the new 2009 songs, and at the end of that same year we could've gotten this:

(Consider with full band arrangements - and preferably with better production)

1. The Fellowship
2. Widow Wake My Mind
3. Emerald Green is the Colour
4. A Stitch in Time
5. West Coast
6. When the Cocks Crow
7. Tom Tom
8. Freak
9. My Love is Winter
10. Caroline, Yes
11. Shadowland
12. Make it Happen
13. Circular Change
14. Into the Light

B-sides:
Tallulah Lu/ Bugaboo
The Trip
Astral Planes
Spangled

And who knows how many of the tracks we only have names of, but never have heard could've come out too:

Far Away Sun
Morning Star
The Mandarin
The Dauphine
Blurricane
Fate the Lonely Actor
Snare
Let You In
Beautiful Star
Rains in New York
Spitfire
Life is Grand
I'm a Believer
Clouds
Lost in You
Junke
Breath of Life
Body + Soul
Victorian Victim
Long Ago-Go
Right with You

[savethetiger]

RottingApples, on 25 February 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

In my mind, this is how it should have happened:

New Pumpkins Double Album
Independent Release
Recorded live in studio late 2008 (just before and just after 20th Ann. Tour)
Released: Spring 2009
All songs have full, fleshed out arrangements (ala Chris Isaak performance)
All additional instruments (horns, keys, strings, etc.) included:

1. Question Mark
2. POX
3. Owata
4. If Only in a Dream
5. GLOW
6. Orpheus Descending
7. Peace + Love
8. Psalm 131 (Squander)
9. Promise Me
10. Again, Again, Again
11. Gossamer
12. A Song for a Son

1. Roctopus
2. As Rome Burns
3. Mama
4. The Rose March
5. If All Goes Wrong
6. Superchrist
7. 99 Floors
8. Corsage in Flames
9. No Surrender
10. The Leaving Lament
11. Sunkissed
12. The March Hare

B-sides:
I'm Doing the Best I Can
I Don't Mind
Communion

Haha never thought I would see that requested anywhere. Touche.

[RottingApples]

savethetiger, on 02 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Haha never thought I would see that requested anywhere. Touche.

Would've made a nice lead into Rome. Plus, if anyone really deserves their own drum solo track, it's Jimmy.

[lucciola]

Billy Apples, you make cry when you talk like that. Oh, what might have been! :lol:/>

[GracefulSwan]

Cottonwood Symphony :happy:/>