[Raoul]

To put it simply, Billy is just a massive, self indulgent tosser who craves attention. He has always been like this, except now we notice how desperate and pathetic these traits are in him as he doesn't have the music to back it all up nor the advantage of being the centre of the current scene. He is also too old to be acting like this, while being too young to be sitting back and resting on past achievements.

I'm actually getting to a point where i hope he finishes the Pumpkins back up again, then apologize's to the fans for starting the whole thing back up again for the wrong reasons. Its obvious now that he wheeled out the pumpkins name souly for that reason and it has all been quite disappointing. He could be doing all this as a solo artist and the total experience to date will have been no different and actually much more valid.

[Fernando]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 17 March 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

If In Rainbows wasn't a solution, then why does it seem like Billy is going to adopt a very similar model with SPRC?? The reason why I say he is part of the problem is because he still hasn't adopted the right line of thinking. I think trying to change consumer's listening habits without some sort of new physical device is foolish. It's a problem, and he is addressing this problem, but I don't think it's a relevant problem yet. There are still many people who want to download the album and listen the traditional way, and listen how they want. Letting people experience what you make how they want is a good thing. Do I think changing listening habits will be a relevant problem in the future? Definitely, but I think there are other more important issues he should be challenging with his output than leading a horse to water and making it drink. Creating your own world with your fans at the center of it is fine, but where in the last 4 years has Billy shown he's really willing to listen to the fans and accept what they are saying? With an attitude like that I really doubt it, and before you mention gatekeepers, realize that as far as community goes it's probably an even worse idea. Why? Because if you don't implement it intelligently you run the risk of creating negative feelings in your community, because some may think you are unfairly playing favorites. I have already seen this particular thorn blossoming.

It's not the solution and it's very weird you think that Radiohead did it first. A lot of people did something very similar, like NIN releasing of Ghosts I-IV (included free samples, a $5 digital version and premium packages that came with downloads, discs, and varying merchandise depending on the money one was willing to pay).

Anyway, if it was A MODEL or a solution, why didn't Radiohead release The Kings of Limb in that model? Because the appeal was the marketing ploy, it works for one album, but it will be nothing new for another one... so, no, it's not a model.

I would say I know some people that still listen to album, but they are the smallest part of my friends: huge fans of music or fan of a band. The biggest part of my friends is just listening to random songs - they don't even know if it is a song released in 2000 or in last March. Billy is not tottaly wrong, he's just emphasizing...

lucciola, on 18 March 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Fernando, very respectfully, it most certainly did not change the world. The 90s grunge movement (and it was a movement of sorts, I'll grant you that) trailed far behind the late 60s counterculture movement, and even the 70s punk culture in terms of influence and direction. It lacked cohesion and vitality, and any initial sincerity was co-opted by the corporate machine mere moments after birth. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the other side", but I'll say that SP were hardly a truly alternative band. Possibly with Gish, but in no way with SD or MCIS. They were a mainstream pop/rock band. They were just a much better than usual mainstream pop/rock band. "Alternative" is catch phrase we all understand and use, but to be truly alternative you must exist apart from the mainstream construct. And that's usually (but not always) where you'll find the good stuff.So please don't say "nobody." I'm crying for all these kids who won't put a little effort into finding interesting, better quality music and art. If mainstream pop makes you happy, great. No argument from me. If not, stop bitching and dig deeper.Bountiful Wasteland :thumbsup:/>

I think you are overlooking those other moviments. There were a lot of problems and they lacked cohesion too, they were co-opted by the corporate machine too, mere but in the end of the day, we remember their best part.

SP were and still are an alternative band. It's not about beeing mainstream... if you are alternative, you will be playing what you want even if you are playing in a pub or in a TV show. That's what I mean by "the other side"... if you turned your TV on in the middle of the 90's you could see some crap music but a lot of great bands too... they were there, the general public had the chance to see something different - and that's also what I call "alternative"!

Take a look at the "Best New Artist in a Video" in MTV VMA 95

Jeff Buckley — "Last Goodbye"
Des'ree — "You Gotta Be"
Filter — "Hey Man, Nice Shot"
Hootie & the Blowfish — "Hold My Hand"
Portishead — "Sour Times (Nobody Loves Me)"

Now, take a look at the "Best New Artist" in MTV VMA 2010

Justin Bieber (featuring Ludacris) — "Baby"
Broken Bells — "The Ghost Inside"
Jason Derülo — "In My Head"
Kesha — "Tik Tok"
Nicki Minaj (featuring Sean Garrett) — "Massive Attack"

Well, I am not listening to Justin Bieber just because he was the winner, but I'm a huge fan of music looking for interesting things out there... but what about the general public, where are "the other side", the alternative music for them?

[Dusty]

I like the attitude Billy put forth in his video. It reminds me of how Radiohead and Pearl Jam go around being angry at "corportations" and "the institution" and "society", and then you're their best friend when they see you at a show, because you're the good fans. Billy tells you what he thinks--he's here to be an artist. Like his music, or don't. He only wants fans who are interested and engaged. And a band like Radiohead or Pearl Jam, the bands who are so "fan friendly", are the ones who "shit on their fans" in a real, palpable way. Pearl Jam stopped touring to advance a half-baked vendetta against Ticketmaster. Radiohead goes off into a cave and dissapears for years at a time. As a fan of Billy Corgan, and the Smashing Pumpkins, I want music, and there, he has never let me down. Making music is all Billy does, and that's the biggest service he could do me.
That's why being a fan of the Pumpkins is being in an "honest relationship". Billy tells you when you are missing the point, and everyone here clearly has no trouble speaking thier mind about what they want from Billy Corgan.
Billy wants to earn his fans, and his community. That's exactly what he's talking about every time he says he doesn't want to be a nostalgia act. He doesn't want our attention when he doesn't desrve it. And that's a big part of why I love this band, and Billy as an artist. Maybe I'm in the minority.

[ShamanO]

Raoul, on 18 March 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

To put it simply, Billy is just a massive, self indulgent tosser who craves attention. He has always been like this, except now we notice how desperate and pathetic these traits are in him as he doesn't have the music to back it all up nor the advantage of being the centre of the current scene. He is also too old to be acting like this, while being too young to be sitting back and resting on past achievements.

I'm actually getting to a point where i hope he finishes the Pumpkins back up again, then apologize's to the fans for starting the whole thing back up again for the wrong reasons. Its obvious now that he wheeled out the pumpkins name souly for that reason and it has all been quite disappointing. He could be doing all this as a solo artist and the total experience to date will have been no different and actually much more valid.

I do not see Billy expressing his opinions as being desperate or pathetic, I actually admire him for what he has to say. DO what you gotta do, SAY what you gotta say....Why would anyone want to hold someone back from speaking their mind/opinions? What good is someone who wants to shut down what another says? FUCK YOU let the man say what he wants. You don't have to listen if you can't handle what he has got to say. I respect your opinion Raoul, but I'll be damned to agree with it....

[Raoul]

Dusty, on 18 March 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I like the attitude Billy put forth in his video. It reminds me of how Radiohead and Pearl Jam go around being angry at "corportations" and "the institution" and "society", and then you're their best friend when they see you at a show, because you're the good fans. Billy tells you what he thinks--he's here to be an artist. Like his music, or don't. He only wants fans who are interested and engaged. And a band like Radiohead or Pearl Jam, the bands who are so "fan friendly", are the ones who "shit on their fans" in a real, palpable way. Pearl Jam stopped touring to advance a half-baked vendetta against Ticketmaster. Radiohead goes off into a cave and dissapears for years at a time. As a fan of Billy Corgan, and the Smashing Pumpkins, I want music, and there, he has never let me down. Making music is all Billy does, and that's the biggest service he could do me.
That's why being a fan of the Pumpkins is being in an "honest relationship". Billy tells you when you are missing the point, and everyone here clearly has no trouble speaking thier mind about what they want from Billy Corgan.
Billy wants to earn his fans, and his community. That's exactly what he's talking about every time he says he doesn't want to be a nostalgia act. He doesn't want our attention when he doesn't desrve it. And that's a big part of why I love this band, and Billy as an artist. Maybe I'm in the minority.

wouldn't call 3 albums in 13 years under 3 different band names a result of "writing music is all he does". You obviously forgot about him "blossoming" wrestling empire, the book he is writting, the website he made up on spiritual guidence, the teahouse he opened - writing music for Jessica Simpson & cop tv shows - really, your entire comment is completely false. Despite Pearl Jams vendetta and Radioheads cave - they have both played more concerts and released more albums than Billy Corgan has under the Smashing Pumpkins, Zwan, "Billy Corgan" or Spirits in the Sky combined.

Billy has dropped the ball again. If he released Oceania 4 months ago the vibe and atmosphere for this band would have been completely different. Instead he has shopped it round, kept talking his stupid mouth off - and the atmosphere is fucking shit again. Oceania may be fantastic, but it will sound awfully bitter sweet no matter what.

[AndyToe]

TL;DR can someone metaphrase it for me?

[Raoul]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I do not see Billy expressing his opinions as being desperate or pathetic, I actually admire him for what he has to say. DO what you gotta do, SAY what you gotta say....Why would anyone want to hold someone back from speaking their mind/opinions? What good is someone who wants to shut down what another says? FUCK YOU let the man say what he wants. You don't have to listen if you can't handle what he has got to say. I respect your opinion Raoul, but I'll be damned to agree with it....

Yeah he can go around saying whatever he likes, and the rest of the world will go around thinking he is an arrogant has been cockhead, and talking about it. Thats whats happening bro - People don't hear him and "nod and agree" they hear him and go " what a cockhead. What's he done lately to warrant such an opinion?"

I would prefer he say all this stuff as just "Billy Corgan" and close the name Smashing Pumpkins up. No need for his silly opinions to taint what was once a great band. I'm pretty sure if you ask the other 3 original band member's they would also appreciate him closing it up and letting it rest in peace & dignity

The thing that shits me with what he says is - he offers no real solutioin. If you can;t be part of a solution, don't be part of it at all. Just talking about it achieves nothing.

[ShamanO]

here's the thing...regardless if he he is in Smashing pumpkins...he still IS Billy Corgan. He can say what he wants in or out of the band and people will still think whatever shit about him because many people can't handle his blunt comments.
And I'm pretty fucking sure the people who are spewing the shit about him act just as "cockheaded" at times with their passions.

I like both sides to Billy...the good the bad...it's who he is.

also...it's Billy music, Billy passion, Billy's choice...he can make his own decisions. As long as I keep hearing his music and knowing he is being himself, doing what he loves I'm happy!

also you stating what you think about what Billy does is making you kind of cockheaded too #justsayin

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

Here's an update

[Raoul]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

here's the thing...regardless if he he is in Smashing pumpkins...he still IS Billy Corgan. He can say what he wants in or out of the band and people will still think whatever shit about him because many people can't handle his blunt comments.
And I'm pretty fucking sure the people who are spewing the shit about him act just as "cockheaded" at times with their passions.

I like both sides to Billy...the good the bad...it's who he is.

also...it's Billy music, Billy passion, Billy's choice...he can make his own decisions. As long as I keep hearing his music and knowing he is being himself, doing what he loves I'm happy!

also you stating what you think about what Billy does is making you kind of cockheaded too #justsayin

Sorry but how does calling a pot a pot make me a kind of cockhead?

If Billy Corgan wants to sit around whith running camera's rolling and call an entire generation of musicians "poseurs", i think he should be called out about it. If thats what he really thinks, then he seriously has no fucking clue.

What makes him so qualified to make that call? What research has he done into the current crop of music? How many live shows has he been to in the past 15 years where he was not playing himself? How many of those live shows were new acts compared to old acts like Roger Waters & Rush? The fact he used to be important in the industry doesn't make his opinion any more valid if he isn;t educated in the current bands. Does this mean he thinks Nicole's new band are a bunch of poseurs too?

I strongly doubt Billy would be able to name the band playing on any indie radio station 90% of the time. so how the fuck can he call them poseurs?

He is just generalizing, its so fucking obvious, Whenever he talks about the new bands, he only ever mentions Arcade Fire. Before tArcade Fire won a grammy, i had never heard him once mention Arcade Fire. All of a sudden they are his "call to" band when talking about current rock scene

He is more than welcome to put himself out there and be Billy, but he has to be prepared for the world to judge him on that - and the overwhelming feedback of everyone i know who saw that video or read about his "talk" thought "what a fucking cockhead". I'm sure that hurts you as you clearly love the man - but perhaps that love is clouding your impression of what the rest of the world is thinking.

[Raoul]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 18 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Here's an update

Billy talking about "tweeting".... fantastic

[ShamanO]

if the rest of the world is calling you a cockhead what does it matter? You are who you are and you aren't going to change and be some little bitch to please others. You do what makes you happy, you do what you want. Do you think i give 2 shits about you thinking i'm clouded because I admire him for speaking his mind? NOPE. and why? because you are who again? someone bickering with me on an SP forum.

I dont' know but what I am getting out of your comments is that you think Billy is not very intelligent and has no clue what he is talking about EVEN THOUGH he has been in the music business for a big part of his life. I'm sure he is observant and pays attention to many things and speaks what he feels based on what he is observing, just as you are speaking based on what you are hearing out of his mouth that you don't seem to like. some agree with him some don't...did he not get a standing ovation while he was at sxsw? yeah see people do like what he has to say and a few dont and those few are the ones who get all up on the interwebs and start their negative nancy campaign against him.. You don't have to agree with him that's fine, but if you do support him then fucking act like it and stop trying throw out bullshit on something he said because you disagree as if he has it all wrong. He is entitled to his own beliefs and opinions just as you and the rest of us are. Please forgive him for not bending to what you want to hear from him. he is not your fucking puppet and should not have to bow down to what you ideally want him to be saying because thats how you wanna see it.
everyone pissed and moaned because he was being too hippy nice like...everyone pissed and moaned because he was being a douche in 2008..make up your damn minds people! let him say what he's gotta say like it or not it's Billy...

[nasalscarecrow]

Have I missed much? Probably not.

[pastup]

The point is just that we can continue the conversation without talking everything Billy says as the gospel truth. He's been known to contradict himself and he seems really confident about most of what he's saying but that confidence might lead you to not question it as being true or not. He speaks his mind which should be applauded because he's willing to say unpopular things but I definitely don't agree with every single thing he says. Of course I could be wrong too. He has more experience as he's been inside the business for 25 plus years so he sees a side of things that I don't see.
Things look different from his perspective vs the perspective of someone on the outside of problem looking at it in a completely different way. Sometimes you can be too close to a problem to see it for what it really is. Maybe he's been somewhat blinded by the fame and the fans and everyone treating him like a God for 20 years.

[JSapp]

Raoul, on 18 March 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

wouldn't call 3 albums in 13 years under 3 different band names a result of "writing music is all he does".

I will assume you meant over the last 13 years here. We have Machina, Machina II, MSOTS, TFE, Zeitgeist, TBK, and now Oceania. This is is without counting the Djali Zwan, or Spirits in the Sky stuff. So I would say your count is off. You may not like everything he has done but the guy has been actively making music

[ShamanO]

I dont think that has deluded him Pastup because he has had to regain his fans slowly over the years...and he knows it. And yes we all know he can be contradictory, but so is the damn fanbase at times. the fanbase as a whole is bipolar :lol:/>

[awsmsc]

Wait, I'm confused. Is there a long version of this video? Did we already see different parts of this interview? Or are these excerpts from an interview we previously hadn't seen at all?

[ShamanO]

awsmsc, on 18 March 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Wait, I'm confused. Is there a long version of this video? Did we already see different parts of this interview? Or are these excerpts from an interview we previously hadn't seen at all?

excerpts from an interview we previously hadn't seen at all

[pastup]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I dont think that has deluded him Pastup because he has had to regain his fans slowly over the years...and he knows it. And yes we all know he can be contradictory, but so is the damn fanbase at times. the fanbase as a whole is bipolar :lol:/>

well for an example. I was just saying in this thread that I didn't agree with his comments about the relationship between fans and the band. He basically said he doesn't owe the fans shit and they don't owe him shit and that supportive relationship from fans was an illusion, That's how I interpreted his comments anyway.

but then in the SXSW video I just watched he's arguing that fans should be more supportive just by promoting what the band is doing through twitter and facebook etc... despite his comments that fans don't owe him shit and he doesn't owe them shit.

[ShamanO]

well technically he doesn't owe us shit and we don't owe him shit, but then we and him would not be right here right now. so if you want him to give you gotta give too.

[RottingApples]

Raoul, on 18 March 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

He is just generalizing, its so fucking obvious, Whenever he talks about the new bands, he only ever mentions Arcade Fire. Before tArcade Fire won a grammy, i had never heard him once mention Arcade Fire. All of a sudden they are his "call to" band when talking about current rock scene

:lol:/> He did mention them once before, but it was him complaining about how they weren't getting as much grief for putting out an album with different covers, when he got so much shit for Zeitgeist.

[Gr3g3]

God damn Raoul. And I thought snail had anger problems. Deep breathe. Serenity now!

[ShamanO]

well it must be that their fanbase didn't pay super close attention to what SP did with Zeitgeist...or their fans just aren't a bunch of whiny bitches

[pastup]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

well technically he doesn't owe us shit and we don't owe him shit, but then we and him would not be right here right now. so if you want him to give you gotta give too.

right so why would he say that the relationship of a fan to the artist was non existent? Maybe he changed his mind I don't know but that's just an example of what I see as sort of a contradiction. It doesn't mean I'm not a fan and that I'm not supportive of what the band's trying to do. Maybe what he meant was that you show support because you want to and not because you want something from him in return.

[ShamanO]

your return is the music...from being supportive.

and maybe he felt the relationship was non existent at one time? :shrug:/> we don't know where he was coming from with that thought.

I love you all, but I gotta head out to work now. :(/> dammit

[Arachnea]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

well it must be that their fanbase didn't pay super close attention to what SP did with Zeitgeist...or their fans just aren't a bunch of whiny bitches

Like artist, like fans.

What I find most alarming, as pastup touched on in an earlier post, is that Billy is very contrary when it comes to fan relationships. He wants their unquestioning support yet he also does not want to feel like he needs to explain himself or be held accountable for anything. It not necessarily wrong that he feels that way, as it is his right as an artist that is talking (to be free to do and say what he wants) yet he essentially wants unconditional love and loyalty from the fans but does not want to reciprocate. Essentially he wants the fans to always be there for him and not have to work hard to keep them. His feelings are understandable, yet the attitude becomes a big problem when he starts blaming the fan base for his failures.

[RottingApples]

ShamanO, on 18 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

your return is the music...from being supportive.

Then, doesn't that mean he "owes us" (for being supportive)?

[frosty]

serenity now! is my favorite phrase of the day. :lol:/>

[Fernando]

Have you guys seen this?

Quote

he is currently working with Sean Evans, the creative director of Roger Waters' "The Wall" tour, on the design of a set for the next Smashing Pumpkins tour. He says they will be playing "Oceania," which will be released in June, in sequence on the tour. "It's got a good prog thing to it," he says of the album. Building an elaborate set "seems to be the proggy thing to do."

http://www.billboard...006494152.story

[werideatdusk]

Awesome!

[misguided]

coool

[Arachnea]

Fernando, on 19 March 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

http://www.billboard...006494152.story

Intriguing. It sounds like this is going to be a very expensive tour. Billy really is going all in for this album. Roger Waters also played The Wall from beginning to end, which seems to have influenced Billy's decision to do the same.

[ShamanO]

so what does this mean? what kind of set could he be building to give the show an oceania experience? not only will our ears be blown but our eyes too! :shocked:/>

[CoolAsIceCream]

lol
lame

[Sophie]

"Elaborate set" could imply a tour full of big arenas.

Medium venues would be great, I mean 5,000 to 20,000 people no more (no less for such an event).
I do not appreciate the same way concerts in stadiums with 100,000 crazy people around. ;)/>
Anyway I doubt they're gonna sell more than 20,000 tickets for each show (in Europe I mean, I don't have an idea of the figures in the US).

ShamanO, on 19 March 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

so what does this mean? what kind of set could he be building to give the show an oceania experience? not only will our ears be blown but our eyes too! :shocked:/>

A glimpse at what an intense Oceania experience could be...

http://i41.tinypic.com/ztwt4o.jpg

This post has been edited by Sophie: 19 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

[ShamanO]

CoolAsIceCream, on 19 March 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

lol
lame

you know what's even more lame? I gave you a +1 on your comment. I was trying to hit the reply button to your comment :rant:/>

Sophie, on 19 March 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

"Elaborate set" could imply a tour full of big arenas.

Medium venues would be great, I mean 5,000 to 20,000 people no more (no less for such an event).
I do not appreciate the same way concerts in stadiums with 100,000 crazy people around. ;)/>
Anyway I doubt they're gonna sell more than 20,000 tickets for each show (in Europe I mean, I don't have an idea of the figures in the US).


A glimpse at what an intense Oceania experience could be...

http://i41.tinypic.com/ztwt4o.jpg

so Billy is getting dumped with gatorade? and the hatorade to be dumped on the crowd. CAIC get in line...you're 1st

and in the eyes of the jackal I say DUMP IT ON HIM

[odracir]

Well, here is some from this last "The Wall Tour" in which Sean Evans worked. Actually looks really cool.

!

[ShamanO]

:awklove:/> wow Billy must have something phenomenal planned out!!

[JSapp]

This is exciting news. But I'm sure someone will hate on this too

[frosty]

this makes me even less interested in the tour.
and wow i would have stared at that scary vagina all night. somebody paid him to draw that.

edit: oh ok there are other images. i just noticed. they still look terrible.

[pastup]

frosty, on 19 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

this makes me even less interested in the tour.
and wow i would have stared at that scary vagina all night. somebody paid him to draw that.

edit: oh ok there are other images. i just noticed. they still look terrible.

Have you never seen The Wall? The scary vagina's the best part!

[frosty]

heh, yes i've seen it but i don't remember everything.
i didn't like most of the animation in it.

[odracir]

:rolleyes:/>

[cleric]

frosty, on 19 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

this makes me even less interested in the tour.

even less interested than very interested? hmmm.
maybe then you'll start to check for news on the album every other day rather than every day? :scatch:/>