[Fernando]

http://www.fasterlou...-the-last-laugh

My fav quote:

Quote

Alright. Machina II is a brilliant album, have you ever thought about releasing it properly, maybe when you re-issue the others?

Yes. Our sell-out move, for Machina, is we’re going to remix the whole record and put it in its official sequence the way I’d hoped for in the beginning. I wrote it as a rock opera double album type of thing, so we’re going to remix the whole thing. I’ve already talked to Flood, and he’s been indicating he wants to be involved with that part of the process, and then we’ll finally finish the album, the way it was meant to be. How was that? Did that pass the Pitchfork meter of integrity? Me reaching into my own pockets to remix my own records so I can convince kids who didn’t like them the first time the first time to buy them again?

[Drevpile]

This is the best part of the whole re-issue thing.

[Deleted User Account]

I've been thinking. It's interesting, but it's right in line with Lucas putting CGI in a New Hope. I actually couldn't give a fuck what Machina was meant to be. I like what it was, and what it was left a mark on my life- not this revisionist history stuff.

"You’ve talked about other 90’s bands being sellouts, is doing a re-release of your back catalogue a sell out move?
That’s a dumb question. That’s one of those set up, journalist dumb questions. Come on I’m 45, you’ve got to do a little better than that one."

LOL. Cop out.

[pastup]

Well he's talking about creating a more holistic picture of his body of work... and his original vision for Machina before it was shot down by the record company or whatever. The original version will still be available if you prefer that. Just like the original Star Wars is available. It's his creation so he certainly has a right to revise it if he wants.

[_Revolution_Blues]

I think that it's great we get to hear an epic Machina album in all its glory. Machina II re mastered, i cannot wait :D/>

[Drevpile]

"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."
"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."
"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."
"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."
"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."
"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."

[themadcaplaughs]

^^^ Is it bad that as soon as I read that I knew you'd quote it on the forum?

[ShamanO]

:lol:/> I thought of Drev too when I read that part. you gotta throw us something new man

[Deleted User Account]

pastup, on 26 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Well he's talking about creating a more holistic picture of his body of work... and his original vision for Machina before it was shot down by the record company or whatever. The original version will still be available if you prefer that. Just like the original Star Wars is available. It's his creation so he certainly has a right to revise it if he wants.

Whether or not he can do what he wants isn't up for debate, and I'm not contesting it. Of course he can. What I'm suggesting is that those albums, in all of their flawed glory, make up his legacy. It's unfortunate to think someone's first experience with Machina 1 or 2 will be some bizarre 2012 version (and yes, it will be exactly that). Machina II in all of its shit sound quality is perfect. It'd be like cleaning up Raw Power (did someone do that? fuckers).

[awsmsc]

"You’ve talked about other 90’s bands being sellouts, is doing a re-release of your back catalogue a sell out move?
That’s a dumb question. That’s one of those set up, journalist dumb questions. Come on I’m 45, you’ve got to do a little better than that one."

I like the response, because it's obviously a stupid question. Doing oldies tours and re-issuing better a quality of existing music when the old stuff can get torrented in 2 minutes are obviously completely different things.

[ShamanO]

ArticulateEric, on 26 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Whether or not he can do what he wants isn't up for debate, and I'm not contesting it. Of course he can. What I'm suggesting is that those albums, in all of their flawed glory, make up his legacy. It's unfortunate to think someone's first experience with Machina 1 or 2 will be some bizarre 2012 version (and yes, it will be exactly that). Machina II in all of its shit sound quality is perfect. It'd be like cleaning up Raw Power (did someone do that? fuckers).

well good thing you have the option to listen to the old ones. perhaps those old ones should be available for a free download from the main site if that ever gets redone.

that way any new fans can have the option to hear it the old way and the reissues version

[pastup]

ArticulateEric, on 26 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Whether or not he can do what he wants isn't up for debate, and I'm not contesting it. Of course he can. What I'm suggesting is that those albums, in all of their flawed glory, make up his legacy. It's unfortunate to think someone's first experience with Machina 1 or 2 will be some bizarre 2012 version (and yes, it will be exactly that). Machina II in all of its shit sound quality is perfect. It'd be like cleaning up Raw Power (did someone do that? fuckers).

I see what you're saying. I love the rough mix sound of some of the Machina tracks. I think they will make clear that what you're listening to is the "original" mix or the 2012 mix. That way whoever is listening will be aware that there's at least one other version of the song out there. Or else they can do a bonus disc that's the original Machina two.

[themadcaplaughs]

Quote

Whether or not he can do what he wants isn't up for debate, and I'm not contesting it. Of course he can. What I'm suggesting is that those albums, in all of their flawed glory, make up his legacy. It's unfortunate to think someone's first experience with Machina 1 or 2 will be some bizarre 2012 version (and yes, it will be exactly that). Machina II in all of its shit sound quality is perfect. It'd be like cleaning up Raw Power (did someone do that? fuckers).

You definitely bring up some valid and thought-provoking points. My initial though was "hell yeah...remixed Machina," but you definitely bring up some ideas.

1. Bizarre 2012 mix: Definitely a concern. For exhibit A see Kerry's remix of "Starla" from the Gish reissue.
2. I certainly must admit part of the allure of Machina for me when it came out was the complete difference between the two. Hearing the dense layers of machines of god and the lo-fi, at time bootleg, quality of Machina II opposed each other, yet somehow worked perfectly together.

I guess I can just stick with the idea that if Billy releases both of them it's fine, but it does bring up some interesting points. On The Lucky 13 thread, it was mentioned how there are some re-recorded Adore tracks with Jimmy on drums, but Billy has chosen not to release them because it brings up the issue of what the definitive version of "Adore" is. Is it the experimental album that set the band down their current career path, or would it be the version with Jimmy rcokin' the skins? I guess this is the same kind of thing. Which Machina would be definitive? The ones we have heard for 12 years now, or the way that conforms to how Billy initially saw them laid out?

[frosty]

i thought this was very pretty:

The greatest things don’t come out of depression, the greatest things come out of love. And the greatest things in life oftentimes go unnoticed. It’s the little things that happen between people who love each other.

[oryann]

Great interview.

On the subject of the Machina re-mixing and all, I think it's fantastic. Even if it is the 'awkward 2012/2013 mix' or whatever, it will still be fascinating to me. The originals of each will still be there, but I think it's really cool that he's deciding to do this. That is great dedication in my eyes. If someone is truly interested upon first listen, what's to say they won't find the originals after all?

While I agree that the way they sound in their currently released state is fantastic and perfect, it doesn't hurt at all to get a cleaned up version. It's amazing that Billy is getting a chance to release this body of work as he intended, and I'm thrilled.

[Deleted User Account]

awsmsc, on 26 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

"You’ve talked about other 90’s bands being sellouts, is doing a re-release of your back catalogue a sell out move?
That’s a dumb question. That’s one of those set up, journalist dumb questions. Come on I’m 45, you’ve got to do a little better than that one."

I like the response, because it's obviously a stupid question. Doing oldies tours and re-issuing better a quality of existing music when the old stuff can get torrented in 2 minutes are obviously completely different things.

I don't think it's that dumb, and Billy being so defensive makes his sometimes (almost always) contentious view points sound like he can dish it but can't take it. Being challenged is cool.

themadcaplaughs, on 26 April 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

You definitely bring up some valid and thought-provoking points. My initial though was "hell yeah...remixed Machina," but you definitely bring up some ideas.

1. Bizarre 2012 mix: Definitely a concern. For exhibit A see Kerry's remix of "Starla" from the Gish reissue.
2. I certainly must admit part of the allure of Machina for me when it came out was the complete difference between the two. Hearing the dense layers of machines of god and the lo-fi, at time bootleg, quality of Machina II opposed each other, yet somehow worked perfectly together.

I guess I can just stick with the idea that if Billy releases both of them it's fine, but it does bring up some interesting points. On The Lucky 13 thread, it was mentioned how there are some re-recorded Adore tracks with Jimmy on drums, but Billy has chosen not to release them because it brings up the issue of what the definitive version of "Adore" is. Is it the experimental album that set the band down their current career path, or would it be the version with Jimmy rcokin' the skins? I guess this is the same kind of thing. Which Machina would be definitive? The ones we have heard for 12 years now, or the way that conforms to how Billy initially saw them laid out?

Well, in my opinion the original releases will always be definitive given their place in the band's history. Anything Corgan does now, regardless of how true it is to whatever his "original vision" was will bring the 13-14 years he's lived since to the table, thus making it the 2013 version.

It just seems... wrong to tamper with it. It is what it is. Circumstance had Jimmy kicked out of the band, which led to Adore... the record company shat down Corgan's throat and wouldn't allow him to release Machina as a double record (a fucking crime, no doubt), and it led to Machina 1 and 2. Circumstance moulded those records as much as vision, and sometimes that's just as important. I don't need "pure Corgan vision". That shit just gets you Owata and Widow.

[RottingApples]

I still maintain the best way to present something new, while preserving the past would be 3 different Machinas:

Machina 1 deluxe
Machina 2 deluxe
Corgan's Original Machina

Seeing as how the new Machina will already be a large release in and of itself, doing the standalone separate releases for each would allow the original version preserved, and contain the bonus/ unreleased stuff. Corgan's "Original Vision" Machina would be this new "2013 Version", and be the deluxe double album it was meant to be. The people that want to hear his original intention, with a remix of the tracks would get what they want, the people who want the originals preserved would also get what they want, and the people who want the unreleased Machina-era cuts would get what they want. Can we call this good?

[simontreal]

RottingApples, on 26 April 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I still maintain the best way to present something new, while preserving the past would be 3 different Machinas:

Machina 1 deluxe
Machina 2 deluxe
Corgan's Original Machina

Seeing as how the new Machina will already be a large release in and of itself, doing the standalone separate releases for each would allow the original version preserved, and contain the bonus/ unreleased stuff. Corgan's "Original Vision" Machina would be this new "2013 Version", and be the deluxe double album it was meant to be. The people that want to hear his original intention, with a remix of the tracks would get what they want, the people who want the originals preserved would also get what they want, and the people who want the unreleased Machina-era cuts would get what they want. Can we call this good?

That would be the best scenario. Pleasing purists and dreamers at the same time !

[Fernando]

2/3 new versions of the same album is a good idea? Yeah! Cause that worked well for Zeitgeist.

ArticulateEric, on 26 April 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

It just seems... wrong to tamper with it. It is what it is.

Why is that wrong for Machina and not wrong for the rest of the albums? Cause they are doing almost the same thing to them! We can see a lot of different thing in Gish and SD versions... It seems that MCIS will show a clean version of TOASE... so remixing and remastering Machinas then putting them together is not a big deal.

[RottingApples]

Fernando, on 26 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

2/3 new versions of the same album is a good idea? Yeah! Cause that worked well for Zeitgeist.

It didn't work for Zeitgeist because it was the same album with a different color cover. 3 distinctly different versions of essentially 2 albums is a very different scenario.

You don't hear anyone complain about them offering a digital version, a CD version, a vinyl version, and a deluxe version of the same album, and that's closer to your argument's example.

Fernando, on 26 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

It seems that MCIS will show a clean version of TOASE...

As a potential bonus track, not replacing the original. And Gish and SD (apart from a slightly different mix of Spaceboy) were not remixed.

This post has been edited by RottingApples: 26 April 2012 - 06:45 PM

[Inertia]

Is it just me, or am I the only one who thought Billy was being sarcastic when he said that he was gonna remix Machina 2..

[Burma8]

ArticulateEric, on 26 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Whether or not he can do what he wants isn't up for debate, and I'm not contesting it. Of course he can. What I'm suggesting is that those albums, in all of their flawed glory, make up his legacy. It's unfortunate to think someone's first experience with Machina 1 or 2 will be some bizarre 2012 version (and yes, it will be exactly that). Machina II in all of its shit sound quality is perfect. It'd be like cleaning up Raw Power (did someone do that? fuckers).

IDK. Billy has always maintained that Machina was supposed to be different than what actually occured. Comparing him to Lucas is like saying that he suddenly started using the potential of the remasters to say that it was 'always intended to be as at least as good as the latest technology/opportunity allowed'. Even though I love Machina and Machina II, I'm excited to anticipate an uninhibited version of the project - at least as far as the the sequence is concerned.

[Fernando]

RottingApples, on 26 April 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

It didn't work for Zeitgeist because it was the same album with a different color cover. 3 distinctly different versions of essentially 2 albums is a very different scenario.

You don't hear anyone complain about them offering a digital version, a CD version, a vinyl version, and a deluxe version of the same album, and that's closer to your argument's example.

I think we all know how many times Billy says about things like "I don't need to please everybody everytime" and all that you are asking is exactly this: make 2 or 3 versions of the (almost) same thing so we all will be happy. Ok, I want mine without onion.

[Deleted User Account]

Burma8, on 26 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

IDK. Billy has always maintained that Machina was supposed to be different than what actually occured. Comparing him to Lucas is like saying that he suddenly started using the potential of the remasters to say that it was 'always intended to be as at least as good as the latest technology/opportunity allowed'. Even though I love Machina and Machina II, I'm excited to anticipate an uninhibited version of the project - at least as far as the the sequence is concerned.

Like I said, it's not all about Corgan's vision. Outside forces invariably influence a band's history, and for better or worse, the Machina's we got are part of the bands legacy. Going back and resequencing it into something that never existed as a whole is just a weird, 2013 version of Machina, not an original. It will be an interesting curiosity... to see how public opinion (critical and fan) may influence Bill's remixing/restructuring/promotion etc.

[paulandgemm]

though i love machina 1 and 2, i always thought something was missing / not right...

as time passes i feel this more and more... i was always obsessed with trying to put the albums together as one whole, as it was intended...

this new version is not like changing what was, its like putting it right the way it should have always been.. i can't see anything but improvement here.

as has been said before, this is the best thing about the whole reissues.

[ItsSoPringles]

heres the way i see it, if we dont like the new remix.....we still have the old album to listen to

[Bountiful_Wasteland]

As far as the Star Wars IV/Machina and Billy Corgan/George Lucas comparison's keep in mind that Star Wars is a classic and beloved Geek movie while Machina (in general) is an awkward and esoteric "last album". It's not quote the same, I doubt there would be the same size mob going to lynch Billy for Machina compared to George Lucas for the original trilogy.

[gyang333]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 27 April 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

As far as the Star Wars IV/Machina and Billy Corgan/George Lucas comparison's keep in mind that Star Wars is a classic and beloved Geek movie while Machina (in general) is an awkward and esoteric "last album". It's not quote the same, I doubt there would be the same size mob going to lynch Billy for Machina compared to George Lucas for the original trilogy.

I think it's a bit inaccurate that the Star Wars comparison was made. It's not like (well I hope this doesn't happen...) Billy is going to have Mike or one of the other new members re-record parts or an entire Machina song. That would be more like Star Wars.

[Deleted User Account]

gyang333, on 27 April 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think it's a bit inaccurate that the Star Wars comparison was made. It's not like (well I hope this doesn't happen...) Billy is going to have Mike or one of the other new members re-record parts or an entire Machina song. That would be more like Star Wars.

How is that analogous to anything Lucas did? And the success of the Machina's is irrelevant-- for better or worse, what came out as Machina 1 is something Billy constructed to be SP's last album. It doesn't matter if there was interference in its construction as a double album, he had more than enough time and vision to craft the album he wanted released. If it was successful, I doubt you'd be seeing this combination. I also don't think we're getting some pure 1999 Machina double album, as I've said. There is some revisionist history here.

I'm not saying this isn't interesting or even cool, but I'm conflicted. Machina 1 and 2 separate, in their current forms, are important albums for old SP. These reissues are going to muddy that.

[whywontyoulisten]

Drevpile, on 26 April 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

"Jimmy and I in a room is still better than about 99 percent of the music that I’ve ever heard ..."

[Deleted User Account]

haha! It didn't even dawn on me...

[Drevpile]

:yes:/>

[thebeatle]

Bountiful_Wasteland, on 27 April 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

As far as the Star Wars IV/Machina and Billy Corgan/George Lucas comparison's keep in mind that Star Wars is a classic and beloved Geek movie while Machina (in general) is an awkward and esoteric "last album". It's not quote the same, I doubt there would be the same size mob going to lynch Billy for Machina compared to George Lucas for the original trilogy.

Came here to say this^^

[Deleted User Account]

thebeatle, on 27 April 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Came here to say this^^

I know Machina isn't held in high esteem with the G public, but it doesn't change the nature of the meddling. Especially for a record BC had said will be looked back at as the best of the band's career when it came out, and has since said was very influential to musicians he'd spoken to. It seems like a concession of defeat, in my opinion.

That said, I AM excited to hear how it comes together, but like Coolasicecream said in another thread, I think this "original order" is malarky and a narrative they're inventing to sell it. I don't think Corgan ever got far enough into the double album to have an original order established. It will be the 2013 'director's cut'. Cool in itself, but a bizarre muddying of the band's history if it's re-released that way with a narrative selling it as definitive or anything.

[Fernando]

(new) Machina x Star Wars? Think like this: the new machina will be like the version in Blu-Ray with the deleted scenes.

[RottingApples]

Fernando, on 26 April 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I think we all know how many times Billy says about things like "I don't need to please everybody everytime" and all that you are asking is exactly this: make 2 or 3 versions of the (almost) same thing so we all will be happy. Ok, I want mine without onion.

That's a terribly poor excuse and line of reasoning. Corgan has been about pulling out all the stops with this re-issue campaign. I'm not saying he's going to do it, just that 3 (oh my God, so many!) releases would cover all the bases of a very expansive era. Machina 1 and Machina 2 standalone releases would be completely different from one another, and the combined one would take sections of the two them, create new mixes out of them (essentially, new versions), and likely add outtakes to fill out the story. I'm sorry if that sounds like 3 identical things to you, Fernando, but to me that really doesn't.

ArticulateEric, on 26 April 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Like I said, it's not all about Corgan's vision. Outside forces invariably influence a band's history, and for better or worse, the Machina's we got are part of the bands legacy. Going back and resequencing it into something that never existed as a whole is just a weird, 2013 version of Machina, not an original. It will be an interesting curiosity... to see how public opinion (critical and fan) may influence Bill's remixing/restructuring/promotion etc.

paulandgemm, on 27 April 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

though i love machina 1 and 2, i always thought something was missing / not right...

as time passes i feel this more and more... i was always obsessed with trying to put the albums together as one whole, as it was intended...

this new version is not like changing what was, its like putting it right the way it should have always been.. i can't see anything but improvement here.

as has been said before, this is the best thing about the whole reissues.

These two opinions, given right next to each other in this thread, indicate why it would be a good idea to do all three versions. There will be people on both sides, and both have valid views. Why not just release 3 things?

[astralweeks]

RottingApples, on 27 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

These two opinions, given right next to each other in this thread, indicate why it would be a good idea to do all three versions. There will be people on both sides, and both have valid views. Why not just release 3 things?

the standard Machina I and II were already released in 2000.. I love Corgan's idea and I'm suprised it's being met with so much protest..

people here generally love the Machinas, but for me it's always featured some of their best songwriting but the albums were generally hit and miss.. can't wait to hear the new version

[ufomammut]

"Australia's one of the most beautiful places on Earth, there was no depression there, when whomever made that place."

What the fuck...?

[ShamanO]

Quote

Oceania is a region centered on the islands of the tropical Pacific Ocean

sounds good to me

This post has been edited by ShamanO: 27 April 2012 - 07:30 PM

[gyang333]

ArticulateEric, on 27 April 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

How is that analogous to anything Lucas did? And the success of the Machina's is irrelevant-- for better or worse, what came out as Machina 1 is something Billy constructed to be SP's last album. It doesn't matter if there was interference in its construction as a double album, he had more than enough time and vision to craft the album he wanted released. If it was successful, I doubt you'd be seeing this combination. I also don't think we're getting some pure 1999 Machina double album, as I've said. There is some revisionist history here.

I'm not saying this isn't interesting or even cool, but I'm conflicted. Machina 1 and 2 separate, in their current forms, are important albums for old SP. These reissues are going to muddy that.

aren't we talking about how they replaced some old version of Anakin with Hayden Christiansen?

[Deleted User Account]

gyang333, on 27 April 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

aren't we talking about how they replaced some old version of Anakin with Hayden Christiansen?

Lucas changed quite a few things in all three movies.

[Parksey]

ufomammut, on 27 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

"Australia's one of the most beautiful places on Earth, there was no depression there, when whomever made that place."

What the fuck...?

:buttrock:/>

[pastup]

ufomammut, on 27 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

"Australia's one of the most beautiful places on Earth, there was no depression there, when whomever made that place."

What the fuck...?

If I had to interpret what Billy meant by that... he seemed to be talking about creation. That Australia is beautiful and who/whatever created that beauty was not from a place of depression? Then he's sort of drawing a parallel to art and creation of art coming from a place of misery and depression vs coming from some place else.

[Deleted User Account]

pastup, on 28 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

If I had to interpret what Billy meant by that... he seemed to be talking about creation. That Australia is beautiful and who/whatever created that beauty was not from a place of depression? Then he's sort of drawing a parallel to art and creation of art coming from a place of misery and depression vs coming from some place else.

It's a bizarre thing to say.