[grapeape]

I was quite impressed with the things Billy Corgan had to say on the Google Play forum at SXSW, and of course I'm eager to hear the full discussion from his main talk, now that I've heard the direction he's taking things in.

I don't necessarily believe his message should be distilled down to "album mentality" vs "singles mentality" - I feel like that skips over the meat of the argument a bit too much. Instead, I was taken by his brevity in saying that the "sandbox" of where he does his work is being filled by people who are willing to "get in line," and that we're supporting an environment where this is the expectation of people who seek to express themselves in an artistic manner. We all know the best music was made by the people who were willing to get out of line, and if we are encouraging an environment where this is not even allowed to happen, well, this is just craziness.

What he says here is absolutely true, but I believe it based on my own personal experience and opinion, not empirical evidence. I've been involved in more band-break-ups than I care to admit to, because when the heat gets turned up, the willingness to get in line overpowers almost everything. I've met so many people who are champing at the bit to extend our knowledge of musical/emotional territory with the songs they've crafted in their bedrooms, and the fact that the world will never hear those songs is absolutely criminal. I'm tired of watching severely talented people disregard their own vision for whatever Pitchfork says. I've seen it happen so many times, I'm tempted to call it a genocide.

But it's hard to say that when the only place I can say it from is from my own pouty "I didn't get any" face. And when "Well Billy Corgan says..." is my rebuttal, eyes roll.

So, who else? Who else is saying these things? People have been critical of the music industry for as long as it existed, but Corgan says thing that are really smart, and clearly from a place of love for the craft, rather than bitterness at his public role in it. It would also appear he has little or nothing to protect, so he can be pretty blunt in his approach, which is a rarity. Who else is bringing that smartness into this circus? Is he really the only one in his field?

Courtney Love wrote an essay that spoke candidly about how the industry screws the artist, and imagined how the internet could be free of these "gatekeepers" if we don't let them sneak into place (iTunes). That was in 2001, however, and if saying "Billy Corgan" is met with eye-rolls, backing him up with anything Courtney Love has to say ends with a hand in my face.

Trent Reznor has said some pretty smart things about the industry, and I know he does a lot to experiment with fan-interactions. But I don't know if he's got one particular interview or essay that adequately sums up his views with the kind of bluntness that helps further Corgan's position.

I'm imagining Tori Amos, Amanda Palmer, and Bjork may have some strong-headed things to say about these ideas. Perhaps in the coming days I'll look through interviews of theirs, but I thought I'd start here to see if anyone instantly calls to mind artists who feel this passionately, and are talking about it on an influential level from within the current paradigm.

Anyone with ideas of who else might be singing these songs, or articles that extend these ideas further, let's hear them!

[Deleted User Account]

grapeape, on 30 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

What he says here is absolutely true, but I believe it based on my own personal experience and opinion, not empirical evidence. I've been involved in more band-break-ups than I care to admit to, because when the heat gets turned up, the willingness to get in line overpowers almost everything. I've met so many people who are champing at the bit to extend our knowledge of musical/emotional territory with the songs they've crafted in their bedrooms, and the fact that the world will never hear those songs is absolutely criminal. I'm tired of watching severely talented people disregard their own vision for whatever Pitchfork says. I've seen it happen so many times, I'm tempted to call it a genocide.

Your thoughts here are just as anecdotal. And I truly, truly don't understand the animosity towards Pitchfork. I can't help but feel the people who try to assert their individuality by railing on PF are ironically doing the same thing they claim to hate; follow blindly. Pitchfork isn't some mind controlling conglomerate. A musician who would tailor their music to be considered hip by a music publication are just trying to fast track success, and they'd do it for ANYONE or THING that promised it (imagined or real). Sure, it's misguided, but it's not PF's fault. It's no different from a band aping their influences too closely or even a person buying the latest clothing in a fashion line.
\

[Parksey]

hopefully not because bill is talking shit

[grapeape]

ArticulateEric, on 30 April 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

And I truly, truly don't understand the animosity towards Pitchfork.

I would say the animosity is towards the "get in line" mentality, which, you're right, is not their fault. The word is a placeholder for "ANYONE" that would be on one end of a spectrum. It's the middle of the spectrum that's drying up. Every time I hear "What we need to do is get you a review on Pitchfork," I go to their site and start reading their reviews and musings, and I am quite turned off. So I look for alternatives, and it's really hard to find any.

My question is, however, who else in Corgan's field is saying anything related to what he's saying?

Or even, who is saying the exact opposite, and has something more than anecdotal evidence to offer?

[ShamanO]

how about where is the interview with Brian Solis and why has that not been put out anywhere? is it private?

[breathesgelatin]

grapeape, on 30 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm imagining Tori Amos, Amanda Palmer, and Bjork may have some strong-headed things to say about these ideas. Perhaps in the coming days I'll look through interviews of theirs, but I thought I'd start here to see if anyone instantly calls to mind artists who feel this passionately, and are talking about it on an influential level from within the current paradigm.

Tori and Bjork definitely. I don't know enough about Amanda Palmer.

I thought this piece on the integrative music education/app stuff that Bjork is trying to do was extremely interesting:
http://nymag.com/art...s/bjork-2012-3/

As far as Tori, very interesting timing on this because I got an email from her list today that she's starting a new record label to nurture artists outside of the major record label system.

ShamanO, on 01 May 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

how about where is the interview with Brian Solis and why has that not been put out anywhere? is it private?

My understanding back in early March was that SXSW would post the interview on their website. In the past, SXSW has posted the video of the major panels on their YouTube account. For example, you can see some of last years' panels here in their 2011 playlist:

http://www.youtube.c...9B&feature=plcp

They have a 2012 playlist started but have not uploaded much into yet. I've been checking their account every day and they've posted some music and other random things (film bumpers from the film fest), but no panels as yet:

http://www.youtube.c...6A&feature=plcp

SXSW owns the rights to the panel and it's up to them whether they post it or not. Brian Solis is apparently trying to get the rights to post it but I somehow doubt they will give it him. More likely they'll post it on their own account.

Latest tweets about it from Mr. Solis:

https://twitter.com/...391787579981824
https://twitter.com/...186547039215617

[breathesgelatin]

aaaaaaaaaand

http://mashable.com/...gan-revolution/

[Deleted User Account]

grapeape, on 30 April 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I would say the animosity is towards the "get in line" mentality, which, you're right, is not their fault. The word is a placeholder for "ANYONE" that would be on one end of a spectrum. It's the middle of the spectrum that's drying up. Every time I hear "What we need to do is get you a review on Pitchfork," I go to their site and start reading their reviews and musings, and I am quite turned off. So I look for alternatives, and it's really hard to find any.

My question is, however, who else in Corgan's field is saying anything related to what he's saying?

Or even, who is saying the exact opposite, and has something more than anecdotal evidence to offer?

What is the get in line mentality? I'm not sure I understand.

Oh, get in line with what's popular and perpetuate it? If so, I'm not sure today's any different from the day's of yore in that regard. There are always innovators and followers and people who aren't quite either (I'd say Corgan's one of those, not breaking any ground in music, but all the same able to carve out success largely doing his own thing).

As far as getting a review on Pitchfork, it's just another means of publicity. I've found out about lots of great music through Pitchfork, but mostly by browsing their tags for music I'd appreciate, regardless of the numeric score (ie. shoegaze, etc, whatever). Check out Velvet Morning by Weird Dreams. I bet a lot of people here would like that song.

[ItsSoPringles]

i hate pitchform because they change their review scores, they are on the same par as rollingstones for me, their reviews feel rushed and they dont actually speak their opinion, they just make a blind review then change it later like they did with that psyence fiction album

[adamdanger!]

So has the full interview ever been released.

[breathesgelatin]

adamdanger!, on 05 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

So has the full interview ever been released.

No.

Solis wanted to get the rights to put it out there, but the real panel interview is owned by SXSW and they don't seem to be biting - or putting it out on their own.

I periodically check their YouTube, but no luck so far.

[*zero*]

breathesgelatin, on 05 July 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

No.

Solis wanted to get the rights to put it out there, but the real panel interview is owned by SXSW and they don't seem to be biting - or putting it out on their own.

I periodically check their YouTube, but no luck so far.

huh. why would solis conduct the interview if he knew he wouldn't have the right to post it in it's entirety? maybe the suits are worried that billy's arguments would be too influential...

ArticulateEric, on 01 May 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

What is the get in line mentality? I'm not sure I understand.

Oh, get in line with what's popular and perpetuate it? If so, I'm not sure today's any different from the day's of yore in that regard. There are always innovators and followers and people who aren't quite either (I'd say Corgan's one of those, not breaking any ground in music, but all the same able to carve out success largely doing his own thing).

i think the "getting in line" refers to pandering to the lowest common denominator. in the mainstream, pop music made by authentic, original artists has been phased out in favor of gimmicky club music because apparently it sells better. and in the indie world, it's unfashionable to make grandiose, ambitious music with the potential to cross over into the mainstream. so billy is really stuck between a rock and a hard place. he can't enlighten the big record labels into supporting real artists, and he's perceived as a careerist corporate rock whore by the indie establishment.