I always was. Thank you to see who I am.

you always look at things so rationally.

great points. my mindset now just looks to the future instead of looking to see what we can make of this existing model. but in no way i think do we contradict each other. we meet on common grounds and build off each other, just maybe different paths that lead us down the same road.

it is good to have found you here on this site.


cocorosie- "rainbow warriors"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaarYY62_BQ

This is also valuable for Henry Ford. We cannot analyze the decisions of the past with the recent results. In 1920, this way of making things was seen as real progress for the society providing for the mass, cars at lower cost in the case of Ford. How can we say it was not progress when children walked long distance to go to school, when available products were limited to the close area and so on. Imagine only all the Portland’s inhabitants arriving at the farmer’s market for all their needs. They couldn’t meet the demand. We need the mass production now. Few days ago, I was listening to the radio an interview during the week of fair-trade. Two africans were invited to make the promotion of their little production of carité butter. They said: We don’t master the production’s methods, so it’s more difficult to be equal in the market. It is a way to work being more effective.

That being said, we may want changing different things in mass production. We have power as consumer. We see the market in changing. Maybe it’s different in United States, we have in our grocery store a lot of choices. First of all, avoiding the transformed products, prefering the fresh products; in the transformed products, we may choose those healthier, poor in salt, sugar and bad fat, some are even identified with a label by Heart Disease Foundation; we have a lot of biological products; with the pressure of the demand, new green products are offered. Also many fair trade products. Those using their own bag receive money for each plastic bag they don’t use. The consumer has a lot of power if he wants to use it.

When you say, we are better to avoid all the trademarks, I don’t agree. We have to use our good sense in that also. Some companies are known as very engaged and conscious socially, so their trademark allows us to make a good choice. And buying their products, we are acting socially encouraging their practice and making pressure on the others to adopt those practices. Aren’t that we are doing with Smashing Pumpkins?

I agree with you on “the life work of mr Corgan” like you explained it. I feel it in this way and that is what is so appealing in the SP’s work, at least for myself.

I don’t know any assumptions I made about your other than I thought you left because I couldn’t get to you user page.

As for your ideas about radio works, you are wrong. That isn’t a personal attack- that is an attack on false information you hold to be true. You can take personal offense to it, but that is pointless. I am sorry if you took personal offense, but perhaps you should look at the facts that I have presented. There is no semantics and I only cite references because I alone do not have credibility, they do, they are the specialists and they can say it better than I, in plain English no less. Just because someone is educated doesn’t mean they aren’t speaking English. If someone doesn’t understand, that means they should take the time to educate themselves.

Songs on the radio are not judged by their merit- perhaps by those who listen to the radio- but the process by what is chosen to be played is based on a record exec’s decision of what themes/image they want to sell. Plain and simple. They give money to radio dj’s and the deal is sealed. This is why there are sooo many free giveaways that radio programs have and the reason why you can listen to a station and hear the same few songs throughout the day. There is no such thing as requests anymore- just the illusion of it. If you would have listened to that media matters show, you would have understood.

I think you are very noble and I respect your opinion that if we uphold some type of value- like anti-commercialism, then we should stay true to that. I would hope that is a true statement that you hold true in your life. But I might ask you- what type of shoes are you wearing, what type of car do you drive, where do you go and find music, etc, etc.

People make mistakes and it is sometimes up to others to allow us to see our mistakes, for them to be pointed out to us. We should not be hostile to such love, we should accept it and analyse it.

And as I have tried to lay out- the world isn’t black and white- it is very much grey and colorful and we need to look at each situation differently. I am under the impression that the pumpkins have a larger scope of the world in mind related to commercialism where as you think they are sell outs. We differ on this, but I might also ask- why are you here then? I would guess that you are not totally sure of yourself about this one. The pumpkins themes are rather adverse to the message of consumerism- and I am pretty sure Billy isn’t that materialistic. Sure, if you had the opportunity to support yourself by doing something you love, would you do it? Would you feel safe with a certain amount of power and money? Yes. We all would. I just think this antimocity people have for them isn’t necessarily directed at the pumpkins, but at our capitalistic society. At the injustices we see and think are wrong.

we, afterall, are only human. And since people are not born benevolent we must be dragged through the mud in order to see our own reflection in the things we dislike about society as a whole. We must go to that ZERO level to understand what must be changed. This is why I think having Zero in this video game is important. The video game realm is very scary and very disillusioned with society. Perhaps they will learn a lesson by having the pumpkins injected in their life somehow, after all- the pumpkins have save many of our lives.

About relying on the music- just listen to it, it’s there.

..the few assumptions you've made about me are irrelevent to the arguement being...the pumpkins are using a popular brand to try and get some extra cash....i don't need to cloud my statements with semantics or university quotes and paraphrasing etc...just tell it like it is and in plain english.

It doesn't matter if the radio broadcast is from some illegal boat out at sea or beamed in via coca cola satellite the point is a song on the radio is judged by the merit of the music...whether they play it between a jack in the box commercial or not.

I find it strange to come on the official pumpkins site and read in the band news that they are allowing their music on a ford commercial(last year) and now this guitarhero thing...and then shout 'defamation' when pepsi uses the bands name on some amazon tagging or whatever it was...(which any unsigned band would die for may i add)...but yes i know....the pumpkins are an empire....a massive business worth zillions...and if all this is true....what happened to relying on the music alone?

i think karaoke2.0 split.

i have been doing research and i came upon a revelation recently. quite profound and it seems that it is the correct answer to this question- of what the pumpkins mean by revolution.

the answer is in the philosopher's stone.

i also think revolution is a play on words which alludes to the ends and beginnings of change which lead us to the philosopher's stone. i think the life work of mr corgan is the attainment of Magnum opus and the healing of society.

(from wikipedia)

* nigredo(-putrefactio), blackening(-putrefaction): individuation, purification, burnout of impureness; see also Suns in alchemy - Sol Niger
* albedo, whitening: spiritualisation, enlightenment
* rubedo, reddening: unification of man with god, unification of the limited with the unlimited.

we see blackening from Gish to Mellon Collie/Adore. We see Whitening from Adore to present (perhaps this is what billy meant by old and new pumpkins, dark and light pumpkins. Reddening is upon us.


the answer is in the Rosy Cross Lamen.

(from wikipedia)

Society of the Rose-Cross devoted itself by teaching mankind the love of God and the beauty of brotherhood, with all that they implied." [2]

tell me this is not what the song "peace and love" is about, or even "leaving lament".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2k5W-xlyUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thcdbD3b6Ro



Morality is also a key factor and considering Elites and Heads of state are grotesquely immoral and spread immoral behavior into the culture- a complete mental, physical and governmental shift must occur.

Each day, we have to make choices for a trademark or another, for a product or another. We have criteria to decide and hopefully are we interested to know if those products we are using are made in the best conditions for workers, good for health, etc.

while on the one hand you are correct in stating that we all have our own criteria and WE have to make choices- the choices we make are rather limited to being nonexistent almost. most large grocery stores carry the same corporation selling you products- you maybe get 5 different corporations selling you crap that was imported here from 3rd world countries or from across the nation. whereas a food co-op or a natural grocery store has local products/produce, and different, more mindful companies who sell organic goods. those are both very limited in scope. we should be supporting our own communities, and that means going to farmers markets and banning with others in your town to grow and make products out of native flora.

here in Portland, or i can go to the farmers market and buy soap, food, cat food, paper, candles, sponges, etc and there is a majority of local stores that sell other goods i purchase such as DVD'rs, and clothing -where i am at least supporting locally, buying fair trade, recycled/recyclable, union or non-sweatshop.

my point is that, no we don't need to make choices between trademarks- our choice should be to avoid trademarks because they do nothing for local communities, nor for a nations economic health. we also need to educate ourselves and inquire about corporations and make our ethical decisions from there. there are such things as good and bad choices and the best choice.


With his Ford T and the assembly line, he was a precursor and changed totally the capacity of production AND following our lifestyle.

as for ford, assembly lines and mass production not only are anti social and alienating, but the satisfaction of making and finishing something you are making by hand is eliminated, fueling even more disconnection by taking away an essential part of what makes us human- the ability to create.

mass production ruins environments and fuels consumerism. not everyone needs their own car. not everyone needs the same t-shits with the same logo in the same place. not everyone need to look exactly like the next person. mass production effectively killed DIY. people stopped making their own clothes, hand crafted woodwork and other trades declined, even repair shops are hard to find. this form of thinking lead to the McDonald revelation of specialization and then fueled taylorism and then the chinese got ahold of it and it is called something else now. and you might know what it is like to be owned by a factory if you live in china or japan.


i am not a primitivist, if people want goods, we should be able to compensate- but not on a mass production scale. especially when there is so much waste.

if people were given the power and the education to make their own goods or were able to build a car from scratch- or at least by using spare parts- workers and consumers would be much happier. of course goods would cost more than they do now- but we also must learn to take into consideration the true cost of goods- from labor costs, environmental costs, social costs and health risks.

that being said- i think a good place to start would be to buy more from thrift stores and farmers markets.

..let me just say Henry Ford Jr was a knob and this was proven when he fired lee iacocca(the man responsible for one of the greatest icons of motor history...the mustang...and the man responsible for saving chrysler)...trust me i am a car lover!..and my arguement has absolutely NOTHING to do with cars or computer games...i love my cars and i grew up playing commodore 64, atari and sega.

my gripe is simple...be honest and 100% committed to one or the other because it's wrong to mislead people by sitting on the fence...you end up looking like a dishonest fool.

look at NIN's latest release GHOSTS(which personally...is a pile of crap)...after all the kicking and screaming NIN still had to release the album in CD format....same with RADIOHEAD's RAINBOWS...which is more or less the same old same old.

and i really hate when people actually believe that these rock bands are in it to change the system...or 'revolution' and all that...i mean come on....be serious...history shows that the only winners are...not mother nature...not the anti-war movement...not famine etc etc......it's the bloody artists singing about it, they're the ones with the healthy bank accounts at the end of the day...and why not?...they're normal people with families and obligations etc.

so fans should wake up and realise this...in particular with the pumpkins...part of the pumpkins appeal has been their ability to connect closer than any linkin park chart toppers could do....but my point is they, like radiohead and NIN amongst others, are taking out their low sales frustration on the format, being CD's.
The format shouldn't matter to them...why the worry?...simple...the world doesn't pay and play these bands like they used to and they're desperate to stay relevant by pretending to be at the cutting edge of some 'revolution' in music formatting...just like many people STILL believe that Dire Straits were the first artist to release a CD...as if they invented it or something?!?!

"Meet the new boss....same as the old boss"

include also a part of business. How do they make their choice for one rather another is known only by them. All of us are living with consumerism. Each day, we have to make choices for a trademark or another, for a product or another. We have criterias to decide and hopefully are we interested to know if those products we are using are made in the best conditions for workers, good for health, etc. I imagine SP have also those kinds of criterias even if we don't know them.

Nevertheless, reading the comments of ladybeans and karaoke and I wonder, all the same, Ford is really important not only for Americans but for the world. With his Ford T and the assembly line, he was a precursor and changed totally the capacity of production AND following our lifestyle. Curious, I went to read what wikipedia said about him and discovered different astonishing things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

I didn't knew he built a race car called "999"!!! And this:

"Ford had a global vision, with consumerism as the key to peace" Nothing less!!

Interesting to read, specially for Americans.